Just so that everyone can be on the same page, here is the transcript of the discussion between Eric and Rob on this topic. (1:41 in video)

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Eric: Why don’t we start right at the basics of the combat changes that are in 3.0, which is you guys are adjusting, a base adjustment across the game of DPS numbers.

Rob: …the biggest thing I think is we wanted to look at how the damage was globally on, like, all the Classes, especially how they interacted with in the end-game stuff, like the nightmare mode Operations, especially, you know, Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. And sort of what we decided is that the Classes had kind of started to exceed the baseline values that we originally had set-up for everything, and since we’re going through and doing this big Discipline reorganization anyway, we decided to take the opportunity to get the Classes back to what the Operations expected.

Eric: Just so I can, like, put it in super-simply terms, you guys basically have “maths” that you use…

Rob: We do the “maths.”

Eric: …you guys do “maths,” which ends up on, like, a chart of, like, these are the targets we’re aiming for so that we can tell how long it’s going to take a boss to die based on what our values are that we think they should be.

Rob: Sure.

Eric: And what you’re saying is that those numbers were creeping up a little bit higher than they should have been.

Rob: Sure. “Creeping up a little bit higher” is a good way to put it. So when we came through and I was talking to George, the Operations guy, we decided that we were going to get everyone back to where they’re suppose to be, come 60. So the end result is that players at Level 60 are going to actually end up about where they are right now at Level 55. Of course the off-shoot of that is that Level 55 guys will come down a little bit and they’ll come back up to where they’re suppose to be at Level 60.

I know that’s a little weird, and I’m certain something we’ll get asked is, “why don’t we just increase everything so people can go up from where they are?” And we actually talked about that, doing that. The real answer is “there are a ton of systems that are sort of built on all these numbers, and since we already knew we were going to do a Class-balance pass, it was sort of the way we thought it was natural" – just to change the Classes and put them back to where they’re suppose to be then rather to try to change the whole rest of the game to support effectively where the Classes were.

Eric: So what you should expect is basically when you get into the game when 3.0 launches, you will notice that when you’re at 55 you’re going to be doing slightly less damage than you did the day before 3.0 came out.

Rob: Yeah, I mean, that is true a little bit, by the same token because Disciplines are coming and all the Classes are all shook-up anyway, things are just going to be a little weird. You’re just going to have a lot to get used to and so I guess part of it is “don’t be surprised if in getting used to it the end result is you’re doing a little less damage.”

Now the trick of course is, tangentially related to that, in the lower-level game, something that we wanted to do is we’ve sort of always felt as time has gone on, that the game, especially the (because the game’s more mature now and players tend to play the higher level), that we could speed up the low-level game. So one of the things that we’re doing is, effectively, all the mobs from, like, level 50 on down, all the mobs that you see out in the planetary content and in your Class missions, that kind of stuff, they’re actually all going to die faster. So it won’t be quite such a “slog,” is the word we’re used a lot, so you get through the game a little faster.

[Omitted brief interjection from Eric about “slog.”]

Eric: So as part of that, do you want to talk a little bit about, I think something that people are probably going to point to a bit is nightmare Dread Fortress and Palace and what impact this will have on those.

Rob: Sure, so the trick with that, of course, is relative to the players doing them now, they might be getting a little more difficult, and that’s true. We will make some adjustments to counteract the Class differences, [omitted interjection of nightmare rewards / end-game philosophy topic].

Eric: Right, because based on the changes that we’re making with damage and some of the other stuff we’re going to talk about today, our expectation (we’re still working out exactly the difficulty there), but nightmare Dread Fortress and Dread Palace are going to be actually pretty difficult even at 60, they’ll still be fairly difficult.

Rob: Sure, Yeah, yeah, I mean, basically because of all the other changes, the difficulty level of the nightmare mode is still relevant, so we might as well keep it in the content channel. I mean, if it’s still a challenge, let’s reward it.

So that's that. They will be changing all mobs south of 50 so they die faster. One could assume that means less health, but it could also be some other kind of adjustment.

Either way it's a good move IMO.

So that's that. They will be changing all mobs south of 50 so they die faster. One could assume that means less health, but it could also be some other kind of adjustment.

 

Either way it's a good move IMO.

Agreed, I'd argue that even higher-level mobs should have a bit of a hp reduction (though perhaps not as much). It's nice to be able to dispatch enemies quickly and deal with more of them than it is to deal with fewer that take forever to die. Ever tried doing dailes as a tank or healer? I have. Most of my characters are tanks or healers. It's a huge time-sink to do anything solo, and don't even get me started on levelling.

Agreed, I'd argue that even higher-level mobs should have a bit of a hp reduction (though perhaps not as much). It's nice to be able to dispatch enemies quickly and deal with more of them than it is to deal with fewer that take forever to die. Ever tried doing dailes as a tank or healer? I have. Most of my characters are tanks or healers. It's a huge time-sink to do anything solo, and don't even get me started on levelling.

Likewise; I usually go tank or healer. However, I am more concerned about the much longer interrupt CDs, that strikes me as very bad. Not so sure the reduced HP will compensate for the low CDs I have encountered on some heavy hitters like Terminate that mobs have. Just fought a mob that could use that attack on a very very short cooldown, I was out of interrupts/knockback/stuns from interrupting them and it finally got 1 off. Nasty ability.

Too early to say I suppose, but I do not like this idea.

Yea, the interrupt change is concerning to me as well. I will have to wait and hold judgement on that one, but I know there are quite few strong and elite mobs that cast a heavy hit, then cast something else immediately and return to the heavy hitter for a third cast.

I usually have to rely on an interrupt, stun and grenade to get by.

That content is still a challenge because power levels didn't go anywhere.

It's still a challenge now for most SWTOR gamers at 55 given current power levels.

If its still a challenge at 60, it's not because you adjusted the OPS, it's because players leveled 5 levels and didn't actually go anywhere is power.

Thats some really screwed up design.

$20 to gain 5 levels, just to then make sure you get back to the level of power you were already at but at 55 all so they can keep 2 worn out ops relevant. Ugh.....

That content is still a challenge because power levels didn't go anywhere.

 

It's still a challenge now for most SWTOR gamers at 55 given current power levels.

 

If its still a challenge at 60, it's not because you adjusted the OPS, it's because players leveled 5 levels and didn't actually go anywhere is power.

 

Thats some really screwed up design.

 

$20 to gain 5 levels, just to then make sure you get back to the level of power you were already at but at 55 all so they can keep 2 worn out ops relevant. Ugh.....

The $20 was for new content as well.

I'm with you in despising that they would even mention DP/DF in a 3.0 discussion, those Ops are over a year old and to mention them when talking about 3.0 is quite disheartening...but...I'm ok with the changes since combat needed a bit of a change tbh.

I'll hold judgement until I see what 3.0 is all about.

The $20 was for new content as well.

True but all revolved around actually increasing your characters abilities.

It's a bit odd to reach the end of a new expansion, gaining 5 levels and yet be the same toon you were when you started.

Not really what I would call a stellar sales move.

I'm with you in despising that they would even mention DP/DF in a 3.0 discussion, those Ops are over a year old and to mention them when talking about 3.0 is quite disheartening...but...I'm ok with the changes since combat needed a bit of a change tbh.

 

I'll hold judgement until I see what 3.0 is all about.

Me too. I'm up in the air on the talent tree changes because I thought blizzards change to the same system was terrible.

Similar for SWTOR. IF this character things bring to much devaluing to my game along with the talent stuff, There are plenty of others games to play. If you can leave wow after 9 o so years, SWTOR will be easier.

I can bite the bullet for $20 and not feel it's much of a loss should things turn out like I see them turning out but I'm open to being surprised should things turn out differently.

True but all revolved around actually increasing your characters abilities.

 

It's a bit odd to reach the end of a new expansion, gaining 5 levels and yet be the same toon you were when you started.

 

Not really what I would call a stellar sales move.

 

Me too. I'm up in the air on the talent tree changes because I thought blizzards change to the same system was terrible.

 

Similar for SWTOR. IF this character things bring to much devaluing to my game along with the talent stuff, There are plenty of others games to play. If you can leave wow after 9 o so years, SWTOR will be easier.

 

I can bite the bullet for $20 and not feel it's much of a loss should things turn out like I see them turning out but I'm open to being surprised should things turn out differently.

I hope you're pleasantly surprised

And I agree! There are plenty of other MMOs out there if they screw this up too badly. I played MMOs before SWTOR, I'll play them long after it....just to be clear, I don't foresee any reason I'd quit because of 3.0.

I'm sure there will be an adjustment period, but in time, things should return to "normal"...I just hope the new "normal" is superior to the current one.

I hope you're pleasantly surprised

Me too.

And I agree! There are plenty of other MMOs out there if they screw this up too badly. I played MMOs before SWTOR, I'll play them long after it....just to be clear, I don't foresee any reason I'd quit because of 3.0.

 

I'm sure there will be an adjustment period, but in time, things should return to "normal"...I just hope the new "normal" is superior to the current one.

Apparently the new normal is the same as the old normal if you go by what BW has said on the topic.

We'll level, do an entire new expansion, hit new OPS, run old FP but with a new difficulty level and all done just to reach the same stat levels we are at now before the expansion.

It's a bit odd to design around 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

Me too.

 

Apparently the new normal is the same as the old normal if you go by what BW has said on the topic.

 

We'll level, do an entire new expansion, hit new OPS, run old FP but with a new difficulty level and all done just to reach the same stat levels we are at now before the expansion.

 

It's a bit odd to design around 1 step forward and 2 steps back.

Well, yeah lol...new/old normal I guess. I just hope some of the other changes they're making, help the game long term. They're addressing some things that I believe have driven players away from SWTOR for years - interrupts and CC's in PvP and lack of role skills while leveling.

I think people are a little fixated on damage drops. IMHO it's normal for an MMO to want to reset the gearing curve with an expansion. Not incredibly concerned.

True, but with gaining 5 new levels it's fair to assume that the level 55 stuff we're doing now would be easier...right? I'm fine with the change...but until I've tried them, I won't know if they're good or bad right?

I think people are a little fixated on damage drops. IMHO it's normal for an MMO to want to reset the gearing curve with an expansion. Not incredibly concerned.

To some extent you are right.

However, what is not right is 55 content being the same or even similar at level 60 because gearing went no where.

When 180/186 gear produces the same results as 196 gear or higher.

You just leveled 5 levels to stay the same. The only difference is you are fooled by the number on your gear. The results are no better than what you had 5 levels ago.

My fear is, it's being done to keep DF and DP relevant at 60. That worn out OPS is done. Even if you have never stepped into it in NM, its out of date and should be presented as any use at level 60 other than some nostalgic purpose.

My fear is, it's being done to keep DF and DP relevant at 60. That worn out OPS is done. Even if you have never stepped into it in NM, its out of date and should be presented as any use at level 60 other than some nostalgic purpose.

OMG...that is my fear too. Seeing them mention those Ops yesterday scares the **** out of me. Those Ops are done. We all want to move on.

As much as BW has been trying to get more people to run ops, this lower DPS change may have the unintended effect of discouraging ops runs. It seems from the transcript that BW believes too high of dps made ops to be easier than intended. And if the solution is too lower dps output (at 3.0 level 55 relative to today at level 55), it would be expected then that more group finder formed groups will be more likely to fail. If that failure rate is too high, group finder will no longer be used. Even forming a PUG outside of group finder may have difficulty at running older operations content. At 2.0, outgeared op content (i.e. old level 50 ops) was a nice way to allow individuals (who may not be in a guild or progression group) to access old op content, while learning their class to better perform in the current op content. Additional gear and level would allow for lower dps output groups to clear old ops content. However, this may no longer be the case.

For example, having watched a clip of a group (I believe it was Yolo's) successfully one-shot clear NiM DF/DP, I noticed their individual DPS output was an average of 600-800 higher than ours. Multiplied by 4 over 5-10 minutes and that is a sizable difference. Our group is pretty good at the mechanics of the fights, but not as good in dps output. Too low of dps output is the likely reason we haven't cleared both instances in NiM (we will likely not be able clear Brontes or Council without higher DPS, no matter how well we execute the mechanics). And in 3.0, lower dps for 55 level ops is likely (notice I didn't say certain) to increase the difficulty of the encounters in all modes, NiM, HM, and SM. Mechanics induced wipes are more likely to occur in NiM than in SM. Since there are fewer mechanics induced wipes in SM, then it is reasonable to believe lowered dps output will have a greater impact on old SM op content than old HM/NiM.

Progression groups will still clear SM content. However, extrapolate this same concept to those groups who successfully clear SM ops but can't clear HM ops, and to those groups (PUGs) who may find it difficult to even clear SM ops. And it makes me wonder if BW is not sabotaging their own efforts to get more people involved in running operations content.

In addition, why does BW want to make more work for themselves by going back and "re-balancing" certain old op content based on the dps level drop? Throw in the changes to interrupt cooldowns, and it sure seems like a lot of extra work for them and use of resources/budget that could be used to generating new content, bug fixes, class balance, etc.

For me it probably won't matter since I've ran DF/DP since it came out, so that if I never saw them again, I wouldn't mind. But concerning BW's intent to encourage more Op groups forming/running, the dps change does seem peculiar.

To some extent you are right.

 

However, what is not right is 55 content being the same or even similar at level 60 because gearing went no where.

 

When 180/186 gear produces the same results as 196 gear or higher.

 

You just leveled 5 levels to stay the same. The only difference is you are fooled by the number on your gear. The results are no better than what you had 5 levels ago.

 

My fear is, it's being done to keep DF and DP relevant at 60. That worn out OPS is done. Even if you have never stepped into it in NM, its out of date and should be presented as any use at level 60 other than some nostalgic purpose.

I think people are overestimating the effects of these changes a tad. While I don't have PTS access, I honestly think that 2.0 did something similar, but edited the stat curves themselves. The sense of progression in these expansions generally comes from story and new abilities, the entire concept of a level cap is to even out the entire game so that we can proverbially start at square one again.

Really I think they are just trying to maintain having "Four Operations" at 60 just like we have at 55 right now, except the old Ops are still 55. Assuming we have 3 new gear tiers, 4 if you count crappy 186 gear from basic comms, I think we will have a somewhat substantial power gain.

Players of the game need to start thinking about percentages INSTEAD of raw numbers.

In 1.7-2.0, yes, we went from 5k -6k crits to 6k-8k crits and beyond, but that was purely number inflation. IN REALITY, proportionate to actual bosses and mobs, THERE WAS A GIGANTIC DAMAGE NERF. We dropped lots of crit, our surge numbers were tiny in comparison, and our damage percentage wise of our targets was generally lower, etc. This is the same exact reset, just a teensy bit more obvious, and frankly I'd rather they do this than let it become WoW levels of inflation.

OMG...that is my fear too. Seeing them mention those Ops yesterday scares the **** out of me. Those Ops are done. We all want to move on.

Wasn't confirmed somewhere that we are getting more ops?

Wasn't confirmed somewhere that we are getting more ops?

Also this. we have two new operations with 10 bosses combined. DF DP is the new SNV and TFB.

True, but with gaining 5 new levels it's fair to assume that the level 55 stuff we're doing now would be easier...right? I'm fine with the change...but until I've tried them, I won't know if they're good or bad right?

Indeed.

I don't typically expect an expansion to hit and turn the level 50 areas I've been speed-grinding for credits with my 55s into something MORE difficult than it is now...

OMG...that is my fear too. Seeing them mention those Ops yesterday scares the **** out of me. Those Ops are done. We all want to move on.

Typically I'd expect a situation like this to allow people who've had little chance to do current top-level content to go back and see that content once they've added 5 levels and upgraded their gear.

It will likely be slightly more difficult for those used to using 186 gear. It is likely it will be the same difficulty for those that have gear that is lower on the pole.

Just using myself as an example, the 55s I use all the time have 162/156 gear, so maybe it's not going to affect them. (I think we've been around the circle on why I'm not at 186 enough times...)

Just using myself as an example, the 55s I used all the time have 162/156 gear, so maybe it's not going to affect them. (I think we've been around the circle on why I'm not at 186 enough times...)

I'm in the same boat, and it doesn't sound to me like the change will effect folks like us.

In other words, I think they put the stats on the 186 gear far too high. One could speculate they realized their error but decided to hold off on fixing it until the major class revamp in 3.0. So I am guessing, though they didn't say this specifically, they intend to nerf the 186 gear.