Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Galactic Alliance vs Phantom Hegemony

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.06.2014 , 02:36 PM | #21
Is it possible for the Head of State to be assassinated in the space battle, provided they participate?
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
10.06.2014 , 02:49 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Well, Thrawn does take the ticket.

No, but really, I I do believe that the likes of Pelleaon, Nek, Wedge etc. are massively overhyped. Clearly these tacticians have skills yes but they one battles, not wars, they are pieces of a whole. I don't put them up there with the real era heavyweights i.e. Grievous, Revan, Thrawn, Ackbar. The kinds of tacticians who masterminded galactic scale conflicts, and single-handedly turn the tides, the sort of tacticians whose very mention left their opponents cowering in fear.

Well, Imperials don't cower, but you get the idea
.
Nah.

The thing with Post ROTJ tacticians is the well of Knowledge they could draw on, their ingenuity etc. The Rebellion era was born out of a dark age where no one had command experience, new styles arose that were really ingenious and devastating.

The thing is, Wedge, Pellaeon, Nek, all of them were the Revans, Thrawns, Ackbars of their ages. They were born out of the Naval renaissanse that was the post ROTJ era...

Also, if you ever put Grevious in the same list as Revan, Thrawn, or Ackbar again, you'll find yourself joining LeGenD on my ignore list.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.06.2014 , 02:50 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Is it possible for the Head of State to be assassinated in the space battle, provided they participate?
#117 Neither Heads of State can perish in the initial space battle, however Second-in-Command's and Allies from both sides can perish - ultimately who if any members of Leadership are killed will be decided by the Arbiter.

So in this case Pellaeon is protected by plot armor, Grievous is not.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.06.2014 , 02:52 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Nah.

The thing with Post ROTJ tacticians is the well of Knowledge they could draw on, their ingenuity etc. The Rebellion era was born out of a dark age where no one had command experience, new styles arose that were really ingenious and devastating.

The thing is, Wedge, Pellaeon, Nek, all of them were the Revans, Thrawns, Ackbars of their ages. They were born out of the Naval renaissanse that was the post ROTJ era...

Also, if you ever put Grevious in the same list as Revan, Thrawn, or Ackbar again, you'll find yourself joining LeGenD on my ignore list.
A good point, but they still lack the naval achievements of those others mentioned.

And if you continue to fail to provide proof, I will stop taking you seriously.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
10.06.2014 , 02:53 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I'd hold on my space write up for now, but I will dispute this notion that Grievous is somehow an inferior tactician. I certainly wholeheartedly reject the notion that Grievous somehow "sucked" - this is plainly non-canonical.

Instead lets look at the facts:

...Their military assets formed a droid army of seemingly limitless size -- a weapon that needed a military mastermind to be wielded effectively.

From within the ranks of the Confederacy came General Grievous, a brilliant strategist unhindered by compassion or scruples. His lightning strikes and effective campaigns caused his reputation to grow in the eyes of a frightened Republic. To many, he eclipsed the threat posed by Count Dooku, the charismatic leader of the Confederacy's political battlefields -- Grievous was the face of the enemy.



Before rebuilt as a cyborg warrior, General Grievous was one of the greatest military masterminds the Kaleesh people had seen.



Following that bloody debut, scattered reports along the HoloNet told of numerous successes in the Office of the General's campaigns against the Republic. Grievous led a stab into the Republic's inner systems along the Corellian Trade Spine, conquering world after world. When Duro fell to a concentrated Confederacy attack, the insulated Core Worlds trembled in fear of what the General was able to achieve.


--Taken from the Databank (archived)

Grievous is a military genius, and crushed the Republic time and time again. Let's not be swayed into thinking the General Grievous, the highest ranking military leader in the CIS, was incompetent due to his portrayal in the TCW show.

In regards to the competition, though I don't doubt the abilities of the opposition, when the Clone Wars began Pellaeon was a mere Captain while Grievous was cracking skulls as the Supreme Commander of the Droid Army. He may have turned into an excellent strategist after years of experience and hard work, but Grievous was brilliant from the start.
None of these quotes dismiss what I'm saying, hell, the first one even agrees with me.

Grevious was good on the whole, his genius was taking fleets, keeping their location secret or coming up with Crazy *** ideas. He however sucked in ship to ship combat, was out moved constantly by the likes of Kenobi, Skywalker and others. He was inconsistent in his feats because his enemies were unconventional.

But yes, his tactical genius was galactic scale, moving fleets into the right planet right as the enemy had vacated, or resupplied. His fleet was the definition of stealth, no one ever knew where he was.

It's entirely different here, in this round it's only done on the basis of Fleet to Fleet battles, and that's where Grevious is sorely lacking.
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.06.2014 , 02:54 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
#117 Neither Heads of State can perish in the initial space battle, however Second-in-Command's and Allies from both sides can perish - ultimately who if any members of Leadership are killed will be decided by the Arbiter.

So in this case Pellaeon is protected by plot armor, Grievous is not.
I was looking for that rule and couldn't find it. I knew I had read it before.

Well, thank you.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
10.06.2014 , 02:57 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
A good point, but they still lack the naval achievements of those others mentioned.

And if you continue to fail to provide proof, I will stop taking you seriously.
Oh my, there is so much evidence it's unbelievable.

Face it, you made a fatal mistake in no space commanders
We all live or die as Krayt wills, Stryfe. At his word, I would cut out my own heart. Or yours.
Celéna Mercenary Cathinka Seeliara Sage

karadron's Avatar


karadron
10.06.2014 , 03:06 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
Oh my, there is so much evidence it's unbelievable.

Face it, you made a fatal mistake in no space commanders
And I has two.

But between Bel Iblis and Pelleaon, I would put Bel Iblis as the better commander. He's a recorded tactical genius, and was the New Republic's best chance at defeating Thrawn.

And TCW provides a perfectly acceptable view on Grievous.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.06.2014 , 03:07 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Selenial View Post
None of these quotes dismiss what I'm saying, hell, the first one even agrees with me.

Grevious was good on the whole, his genius was taking fleets, keeping their location secret or coming up with Crazy *** ideas. He however sucked in ship to ship combat, was out moved constantly by the likes of Kenobi, Skywalker and others. He was inconsistent in his feats because his enemies were unconventional.

But yes, his tactical genius was galactic scale, moving fleets into the right planet right as the enemy had vacated, or resupplied. His fleet was the definition of stealth, no one ever knew where he was.

It's entirely different here, in this round it's only done on the basis of Fleet to Fleet battles, and that's where Grevious is sorely lacking.
This does not seem logical at all.

Fleet to fleet battles is practically all there is to naval strategy, the rest is logistics. How can you possibly be a brilliant strategist and a military mastermind with a slew of naval victories under one's belt and suck at naval combat?!

Your implying that all Grievous did was direct his underlings to go there and attack that and have them do all the dirty work. This is simply not true, Grievous was the face of the Confederacy's war effort, he would have been present at every major naval engagements, been responsible for each major victory. He was a successful naval commander.

Noting that his naval heritage is one of up-front and personal warfare, not crunching numbers in the background.

Anyway I'm not expert on the EU, but I'd like to see some examples of this supposed back-seat commanding. I'd also like to see examples of Grievous being beaten, I don't recall Kenobi ever beating Grievous in a naval battle, and Anakin is only shown to have done this once. Anakin and Kenobi being excellent naval strategists in their own right.

Ready and waiting to be blown away...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.06.2014 , 03:15 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by karadron View Post
And TCW provides a perfectly acceptable view on Grievous.
I'd just like to point out the TCW features Grievous losing only two space battles.

In the first instance he is defeated after the Malevolence has destroyed dozens of Republic warships, and only then through extensive pre-preparation. An advantage that unfortunately Pellaeon does not have.

And in the second instance Anakin lures him into a trap, a pre-prepared trap that really nobody would have seen coming, and using an advantage that in this case Paelleon does again not have.

But let's not forget the opening reel to said episode:

After suffering a series of
disastrous defeats at the
hands of General Grievous,
the Republic's foothold in the
Outer Rim is in jeopardy.


And that's pretty much it, in fact his successes outnumber his defeats. So yes I'd agree TCW does provide a perfectly acceptable view on Grievous, but its a view that seems to be being construed considerably.

I can only assume Selenial's evidence comes from outside of the show.