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Huge misstep in lore and life of the product *****spoiler****

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Huge misstep in lore and life of the product *****spoiler****

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
08.18.2014 , 01:11 PM | #11
I agree. I felt Malgus was a character that should have remained in the storyline permanently. Moving forward it is difficult to see a central figure that has that much drawing power IMO.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
08.18.2014 , 01:15 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by OddballEasyEight View Post
What are you talking about?
The expansion hasn't been announced yet. There was a trailer for the RotHC expansion, so what makes you think there won't be one for this one?
He says "CGI trailer". There was none of that for RotHC.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
08.18.2014 , 01:21 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
The thing is that not even Malgus was that well developed in this game, outside the briefings and debriefings for each flashpoint he provided, Empire side. Most of the lore surrounding him came from this and this.

Now I ask: How many people read those? Especially the latter?

He only became remotely and truly interesting - again, assuming you ignored the above - around the time the crisis on Ilum took place. Before that, there was no actual build-up preceding it.

In other words, just like the Dread Masters, he only became pivotal and / or had a meaningful character development at the time his fall was nigh, NOT exactly before.

To be more succinct, I believe you're confusing style with substance here.
There probably is something to the style vs substance point - at the end of the day how successful a villain is comes down to how much of an impression they make on the player/viewer. Malgus made an impression and I think part of that probably was from the "style" we got in the Cinematics he was part of.

But I think the bigger issue was that, with Malgus, there was a sense of progression in our exposure to him, and it was fairly well proportionate to how much exposure there was. The Dread Masters never got as much progression relative to their exposure.

Even taking the novel and short story out of the picture: We see this bada** Sith Lord in the Deceived trailer, then we learn how he got his cybernetics in Hope, then we see his beginnings (more or less) in Return. Then we actually get to talk to him (or at least see him talk) in the Flashpoint quests. Then we get some meaningful interactions and really find out about his philosophy/character on Ilum. Then we get the epic showdown in the final Flashpoints. With each appearance, you learned at least a little bit more about him - so there was a real progression. And it was definitely helped by the "I'm trying to expunge the stupid racism from the Empire, but I'm still an outright evil bastard" angle that made him stand out from being just another "Generic Bad Guy".

The Dread Masters, by contrast, stay mired in "Generic Bad Guy"-hood over many appearances, in which there is little-to-no progression.

It actually started out okay, you hear about how bada** they are and get to see a bit of it in action on the Empire Belsavis quest-line, and then get the "mysterious threat" angle in Karagga's Palace, with them finally revealed as an enemy in Explosive Conflict. But the problem is, then it stalls at that level for several more appearances. Terror From Beyond, Section X, The Seeds of Rage questline, and Scum and Villainy are all about these villains and their plans, but nothing in these encounters develops them - certainly not proportionately to the amount of time we're spending fighting them.

After all those encounters they're still just "Generic Bad Guy #42" spouting "Generic Bad Guy Dialogue #1138" (Darth Thanaton fell into the same rut). It's not until Oricon, when we find out about them being mentally linked and slowly going mad since one of their number was killed (and start to get a little bit of differentiation in their characters), that we get anything that actually stands out.

If we had jumped straight from EC to Oricon, then it probably would have been fine, they wouldn't have been any more developed than they ultimately were, but there also wouldn't have been so many missed opportunities - so it would have felt more proportionate to their "screen time" at least.

The conflict with Malgus wasn't drawn out for over a year of updates, but by the time he says "Die. Or defeat me. Either way, the Empire is reborn!" they had developed a fairly clear picture of who he is and what he's about.
Given the choice whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny, what was a king to do?
But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
~Kain

MillionsKNives's Avatar


MillionsKNives
08.18.2014 , 01:28 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
He says "CGI trailer". There was none of that for RotHC.
There were trailers for RotHC and they were all generated on a computer.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
08.18.2014 , 01:31 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by MillionsKNives View Post
There were trailers for RotHC and they were all generated on a computer.
I think he meant on par with Deceived, Return and Hope but can't argue with that all the same.

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
08.18.2014 , 01:41 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
* snip *
Truth be told...
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
The thing is that not even Malgus was that well developed in this game, outside the briefings and debriefings for each flashpoint he provided, Empire side. Most of the lore surrounding him came from this and this.

Now I ask: How many people read those? Especially the latter?

He only became remotely and truly interesting - again, assuming you ignored the above - around the time the crisis on Ilum took place. Before that, there was no actual build-up preceding it.

In other words, just like the Dread Masters, he only became pivotal and / or had a meaningful character development at the time his fall was nigh, NOT exactly before.

To be more succinct, I believe you're confusing style with substance here.
Nothing you said actually changes this. Also...
Quote:
Even taking the novel and short story out of the picture: We see this bada** Sith Lord in the Deceived trailer, then we learn how he got his cybernetics in Hope, then we see his beginnings (more or less) in Return. Then we actually get to talk to him (or at least see him talk) in the Flashpoint quests. Then we get some meaningful interactions and really find out about his philosophy/character on Ilum. Then we get the epic showdown in the final Flashpoints. With each appearance, you learned at least a little bit more about him - so there was a real progression. And it was definitely helped by the "I'm trying to expunge the stupid racism from the Empire, but I'm still an outright evil bastard" angle that made him stand out from being just another "Generic Bad Guy".
Again, if you ignore the stuff that came before the game, including the novels and trailers - the latter, again, style VS substance - there's no frame of reference to speak of when he shares some details with you.

For example...
Quote:
  • Malgus at one point says he worked with bounty hunters before, namely Shae Vizla. No interaction is presented in the game between the two... He speaks highly of Jindo Krey but then again, that's shortly before their demise.
  • When you have the opportunity to point out that blaster file and grenades can do you no harm, he says that at one point, he thought the same... And that he was mistaken.
Again, ignoring the stuff OUTSIDE the game, no frame of reference whatsoever.

There is more but this should suffice to convey my overall sentiment: Both the Dread Masters and Malgus, outside their final moments or areas where they were of great importance, spent most of the early game completely AWOL or were not mentioned at all.

Malgus of course provided a much greater payoff but again, his early role is minimal to non-existent. Even Satele appears during the JK and JC storyline, though that is to be expected.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
08.18.2014 , 01:58 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
There is more but this should suffice to convey my overall sentiment: Both the Dread Masters and Malgus, outside their final moments or areas where they were of great importance, spent most of the early game completely AWOL or were not mentioned at all.
Let me put it another way:
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
In other words, just like the Dread Masters, he only became pivotal and / or had a meaningful character development at the time his fall was nigh, NOT exactly before.
The Dread Masters "became pivotal" back in Explosive Conflict in Patch 1.2 (April 12, 2012), when they became the new main villains, but they didn't receive any "meaningful character development" until Oricon/Dread Fortress/Dread Palace in Patch 2.4 (Oct. 1, 2013).

Malgus received tidbits of character development throughout the leveling process (when he was not yet "pivotal"), and then both "became pivotal" and received "meaningful character development" on Ilum/Battle of Ilum/The False Emperor. There was no span of 18 months* where he was "pivotal" but not "developed".

*Or if you don't want to measure in real-world release times, with Malgus there was no span of two Operations (TfB and S&V), a Daily Area (Sec.X) and a quest chain (Seeds of Rage) where he was "pivotal" but not "developed".
Given the choice whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny, what was a king to do?
But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
~Kain

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
08.18.2014 , 02:12 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
Let me put it another way:

The Dread Masters "became pivotal" back in Explosive Conflict in Patch 1.2 (April 12, 2012), when they became the new main villains, but they didn't receive any "meaningful character development" until Oricon/Dread Fortress/Dread Palace in Patch 2.4 (Oct. 1, 2013).

Malgus received tidbits of character development throughout the leveling process (when he was not yet "pivotal"), and then both "became pivotal" and received "meaningful character development" on Ilum/Battle of Ilum/The False Emperor. There was no span of 18 months* where he was "pivotal" but not "developed".
I disagree with this assessment, mostly for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Again, the tidbits you refer to rely heavily upon pre-existing material OUTSIDE(!) this game, not in it. With that same material, there is no frame-of-reference whatsoever for you to rely upon, in order to connect the dots.

Once more, this time with feeling...
Quote:
  • Malgus at one point says he worked with bounty hunters before, namely Shae Vizla. No interaction is presented in the game between the two... He speaks highly of Jindo Krey but then again, that's shortly before their demise.
  • When you have the opportunity to point out that blaster file and grenades can do you no harm, he says that at one point, he thought the same... And that he was mistaken.
You apparently assume everyone either read the novels or saw the trailers, when I'm fairly sure this is not exactly the case.

Quote:
*Or if you don't want to measure in real-world release times, with Malgus there was no span of two Operations (TfB and S&V), a Daily Area (Sec.X) and a quest chain (Seeds of Rage) where he was "pivotal" but not "developed".
What I'm discussing is this...
Quote:
(...) In other words, just like the Dread Masters, he only became pivotal and / or had a meaningful character development at the time his fall was nigh, NOT exactly before. (...)
As mentioned, the stuff you are referring to heavily relies upon stuff which exists OUTSIDE(!) the game, NOT in it.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
08.18.2014 , 02:23 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Wicked View Post
I disagree with this assessment, mostly for the reasons I mentioned previously.

Again, the tidbits you refer to rely heavily upon pre-existing material OUTSIDE(!) this game, not in it. With that same material, there is no frame-of-reference whatsoever for you to rely upon, in order to connect the dots.

Once more, this time with feeling...


You apparently assume everyone either read the novels or saw the trailers, when I'm fairly sure this is not exactly the case.



What I'm discussing is this...


As mentioned ad nauseam, the stuff you are referring to heavily relies upon stuff which exists OUTSIDE(!) the game, NOT in it.
The "tidbits" was a side comment, completely irrelevant to my main point. So I'll repeat the actual point I'm making as well:

When Malgus became pivotal to the plot (i.e. became the new "main villain"), he also received a healthy dose of character development at that time. This development (the development on Ilum and the Battle For Ilum/False Emperor Flashpoints) did not require any outside information to appreciate.

When the Dread Masters became pivotal to the plot (i.e. became the new "main villains"), they received no character development for 18 months/[a questline, a daily area and two operations].
Given the choice whether to rule a corrupt and failing empire or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against one's destiny, what was a king to do?
But does one ever truly have a choice? One can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate, and thus defy the tyrannous stars.
~Kain

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
08.18.2014 , 02:31 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthDymond View Post
The "tidbits" was a side comment, completely irrelevant to my main point. So I'll repeat the actual point I'm making as well:

When Malgus became pivotal to the plot (i.e. became the new "main villain"), he also received a healthy dose of character development at that time. (...)
Did you even read what I wrote earlier?

I'm not disputing that. In fact, that's what I've been saying all along...!!! Also...

Quote:
(...) This development (the development on Ilum and the Battle For Ilum/False Emperor Flashpoints) did not require any outside information to appreciate.
I never said they did. What I said is that the early tidbits did.

Quote:
(...) When the Dread Masters became pivotal to the plot (i.e. became the new "main villains"), they received no character development for 18 months/[a questline, a daily area and two operations].
Last I checked, that's NOT what I was discussing. Again...
Quote:
(...) In other words, just like the Dread Masters, he only became pivotal and / or had a meaningful character development at the time his fall was nigh, NOT exactly before. (...)
It doesn't matter if it was 18 hours, 18 months or 18 years. What matters is the part in bold. Except for...
Spoiler
You faced their proxies, NOT them. Less of a chance to develop them I guess.