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The uncleansable DoTs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
The uncleansable DoTs

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
08.23.2014 , 07:04 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramtar View Post
it's called balancing. Direct damage specs can be counter by Armor Rating, Defense Chance and range in melee cases. What would you rather have: Cleanse or a nerf to DoTs?
Plenty of direct damage attacks have none of those drawbacks while plenty of DoTs do. Mind Crush is a kinetic attack and thus affected by armor and range for Balance Shadows.
My 60s:Alana-Balance, Myschal-Ruffian, Vodoun-Vengeance, Alan-Medic, Ztephanie-Hatred, Curiosi-Marksman, Angiola-Concen., Chisami-Arsenal, Rickta-K. Combat, Mioni - Seer, Vesnas-Tactics, Psionicist-TK Sinbad-Sawbones, Arbaaz-Serenity, Nal'aa-Infil, Hard-top, Assault

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
08.23.2014 , 07:16 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Shevaresh View Post
Well perhaps, but considering that cleansing is stable element of healing in PvE, being featured as a nescessary component for many encounters, it would be rather difficult to remove cleansing all together without just "dumbing down" the game.
Agreed. Which is why uncleansable DoTs exist. Cleanse is perfectly fine in PvE encounters, but it is overpowered against DoT specs.

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As for direct damage, I disagree that there isn't a counter to that. I'd say that there are in fact loads of counters to such abillities whether they're delivered instantly or channeled. LoS'ing/Kiting/Physics(e.g. Push/knockbacks etc)
Line of Sight - This is only for activated direct damage attacks. Melees have very few to none of these. Only a few specs of ranged have them. So this isn't a counter to instant direct damage specs. And to the extent it is, it is also a counter to DoTs as well.

Kiting - Balance Shadows, Pyro PTs can be kited. This has nothing to do with DoTs v. Direct damage, it is a function of range.

Push/Knockbacks - This is not a counter to an instant attack. Once the attack lands the damage is done. It's actually a better counter to a DoT spec. Often I will push a DoT spec away and run out of LOS. That gives me time to let the DoTs expire or for me to use a heal/medpack.

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DoT effects outlast such counters to direct damage, if not cleansed, giving that type of damage a relative advantage over direct damage (based on circumstance, naturally)
That's not an advantage. What you're saying is that DoTs do their damage so slow that they outlast cooldowns while instant attacks just get eaten. Well, if you are crazy enough to waste your big attacks on someone who is using a 3-5 second cooldown then you deserve to lose. But DoTs have to apply their damage over 6-18 seconds. And for damage that is not superior to what direct damage specs can apply in the same timeframe.

DoTs have NO offensive advantage over an instant direct damage attack of the same damage type. For example, Discharge in the Deception spec suffers NO counters that Discharge in the Madness spec does not also suffer.

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But it does seem to become a "hit-or-miss" issue where DoTs are either too simple to counter or too hard, while at the same time also becomming a problem of only some classes being able to counter them at all. The idea of a "backlash" or some form of significant cost to cleanse them, would be an interesting way to go about it, I feel though. Would encourage a more active approach to the issue of countering DoTs, where the one cleansing has to weight in "pro's and con's" of doing so, rather than just acting with a "knee-jerk reaction".
The thing is DoTs aren't any harder to counter than direct damage. In fact they are easier to heal through, can still be shut off by purge abilities and telegraph themselves for healers. People got used to being able to push a button every 4.5 seconds to shut down DoT specs, but it plainly isn't fair or necessary.
My 60s:Alana-Balance, Myschal-Ruffian, Vodoun-Vengeance, Alan-Medic, Ztephanie-Hatred, Curiosi-Marksman, Angiola-Concen., Chisami-Arsenal, Rickta-K. Combat, Mioni - Seer, Vesnas-Tactics, Psionicist-TK Sinbad-Sawbones, Arbaaz-Serenity, Nal'aa-Infil, Hard-top, Assault

Shevaresh's Avatar


Shevaresh
08.23.2014 , 09:42 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
Line of Sight - This is only for activated direct damage attacks. Melees have very few to none of these. Only a few specs of ranged have them. So this isn't a counter to instant direct damage specs. And to the extent it is, it is also a counter to DoTs as well.

Kiting - Balance Shadows, Pyro PTs can be kited. This has nothing to do with DoTs v. Direct damage, it is a function of range.

Push/Knockbacks - This is not a counter to an instant attack. Once the attack lands the damage is done. It's actually a better counter to a DoT spec. Often I will push a DoT spec away and run out of LOS. That gives me time to let the DoTs expire or for me to use a heal/medpack.
All of these are counters to direct damage attacks, though not reactive counters such as a cleanse is to a DoT, but rather counters that needs to be used proactively.

For melee the counter is to prevent proximity, for ranged it is to prevent Line of Sight. Those issues are negated with (most) DoTs being delivered instantly and keeping on damaging regardless of proximity and/or line-of-sight, aswell as outlasting (most) damage-reducing cooldowns

Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
That's not an advantage. What you're saying is that DoTs do their damage so slow that they outlast cooldowns while instant attacks just get eaten. Well, if you are crazy enough to waste your big attacks on someone who is using a 3-5 second cooldown then you deserve to lose. But DoTs have to apply their damage over 6-18 seconds. And for damage that is not superior to what direct damage specs can apply in the same timeframe.
What I'm saying is simply that unlike direct damage, DoT effects will only be partially negated by a damage-reducing cooldown, granting them a relative (though questionable in practicallity) advantage over direct damage, as they would have the entire hit negated/mitigated. This is purely a relative advantage though, and shouldn't be taken as a meaningfull factor, in off itself.

Quote: Originally Posted by Master-Nala View Post
The thing is DoTs aren't any harder to counter than direct damage. In fact they are easier to heal through, can still be shut off by purge abilities and telegraph themselves for healers. People got used to being able to push a button every 4.5 seconds to shut down DoT specs, but it plainly isn't fair or necessary.
Agreed (except for above mentioned exceptions). I would merely argue that simply making DoTs incleansable is merely pushing the "dumbing down" factor to the other end of the spectrum, where there are (nearly) no way to counter the classes using them. Neither having a 4.5 seconds "auto-win" button versus DoT-classes or simply making them uncountable is fun gameplay, imo. Which is why I hope a discussion of the "pro's and con's" of the uncleansable DoTs will inspire the Devs to make a more sustainable and fun solution to this problem, rather than simply keeping "status quo"

Master-Nala's Avatar


Master-Nala
08.23.2014 , 02:02 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Shevaresh View Post
All of these are counters to direct damage attacks, though not reactive counters such as a cleanse is to a DoT, but rather counters that needs to be used proactively.

For melee the counter is to prevent proximity, for ranged it is to prevent Line of Sight. Those issues are negated with (most) DoTs being delivered instantly and keeping on damaging regardless of proximity and/or line-of-sight, aswell as outlasting (most) damage-reducing cooldowns
This is a perception issue.

Discharge as a Deception Assassin does about 6-8K damage instantly;
Discharge as a Madness Assassin does 6-8K of damage over 18 seconds with an instant cast.

Both have a 10 m range. There is NO COUNTER to Deception's Discharge that does not work just as well against Madness's Discharge. None. If you're kiting the Deception Assassin, you can kite the Madness Assassin.

What you're talking about is the fact that after Discharge is applied, you are stuck with the Madness damage and can't cleanse it. THAT ONLY BRINGS PARITY, NOT ADVANTAGE. If the Deception Assassin gets the Discharge off, you've ate the whole amount of damage and in one GCD. With the Madness Discharge you still have 16-17 seconds to deal with that damage. It's about the same damage. Only the Madness damage comes slower.

Where do you see ANY advantage in this scenario? This is as close to an apples to apples comparison that exists in this game.

The perception is that the Madness DoT is uncounterable because you just have to watch it ticking on your. But what folks aren't thinking about is how that is a disadvantage since the direct damage spec gets to do its damage all at once.

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What I'm saying is simply that unlike direct damage, DoT effects will only be partially negated by a damage-reducing cooldown, granting them a relative (though questionable in practicallity) advantage over direct damage, as they would have the entire hit negated/mitigated. This is purely a relative advantage though, and shouldn't be taken as a meaningfull factor, in off itself.
What I am saying is that the instant attack is only negated if used during the defensive power's duration.

Going back to our two Assassin's. Both attack a Vanguard who has Reactive Shield available. The Deception opens with Discharge from stealth, so does the Madness Assassin. The Vanguard uses Reactive Shield immediately. Here's what happens:

1) Deception gets their whole attack off;
2) Madness gets 25% shaved off of the attack, except maybe the last tick if the timing works out.

Where is the advantage?

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Agreed (except for above mentioned exceptions). I would merely argue that simply making DoTs incleansable is merely pushing the "dumbing down" factor to the other end of the spectrum, where there are (nearly) no way to counter the classes using them.
Again, you have all the same counters available against direct damage attacks, just more time and warning to use them.

Going back to our poor Madness Assassin. You get 18 seconds to react to his Discharge while you eat the full damage of the Deception Assassin instantly. The reactive counter is healing for both, but certain classes (Shadows, Sages, Gunslingers, Scoundrels) also can purge the DoT. Giving those classes an additional reactive counter.

And Proactive counters aren't any advantage. With powers like Focused Defense Madness's Discharge will wind up healing the Guardian to full while the Deception's Discharge will just see a portion of their discharge healed back.

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Neither having a 4.5 seconds "auto-win" button versus DoT-classes or simply making them uncountable is fun gameplay, imo. Which is why I hope a discussion of the "pro's and con's" of the uncleansable DoTs will inspire the Devs to make a more sustainable and fun solution to this problem, rather than simply keeping "status quo"
Right now, DoTs have near parity with instant direct damage specs. Any solution that allows you to trivially turn off the damage of the spec is only fun gameplay for the person doing it. Adding a purge effect to the CC breakers would be acceptable, but cleanse needs to stay off the table.
My 60s:Alana-Balance, Myschal-Ruffian, Vodoun-Vengeance, Alan-Medic, Ztephanie-Hatred, Curiosi-Marksman, Angiola-Concen., Chisami-Arsenal, Rickta-K. Combat, Mioni - Seer, Vesnas-Tactics, Psionicist-TK Sinbad-Sawbones, Arbaaz-Serenity, Nal'aa-Infil, Hard-top, Assault