why is the SWTOR community so against "pay to win"

I didn't skim it. I know precisely what you were saying.

Again, the question stands.

If people enjoy playing a particular piece of content (presumably because it is fun), then why would they stop playing that particular piece of content, regardless of what the rewards are or where else they can be obtained from.

For example, I enjoy playing Flashpoints. I replay all flashpoints on all my characters - even those who vastly outlevel the content. I play on alts who are already in gear that is better than what drops in said flashpoints. I do it because it is fun. I do with in groups with people who think the same way.

Seems to me, those who would stop playing content is not interested in the content but simply the treadmill. The treadmill is still there, regardless of where the rewards can be obtained, so why stop running the treadmill if that's what one enjoys? If it's only the reward that is interesting, then there's no point in making varying or in depth content. The money and time could be spent making shinier carrots at the end of the treadmill.

Let's put it this way. At the moment queueing for a flashpoint as a DPS might take 30 minutes. If 75% of the popupation stops playing flashpoints because they can get the rewards easier elsewhere, flashpoint queues for the remaining 25% will take 2 hours. See the problem yet?

Why is P2W bad? Because gaming addiction is real and there are also lots of people who are simply "terribad" with their finances. Spending thousand of dollars on a virtual game that will eventually shut down some day when they are effectively living paycheck to paycheck. Even games (or any form of entertainment) should some semblance of social responsbility. If you are a bar or liquor store owner, would you really sell alcohol to a known drunk who stumbles into your door 4-5 days a week?

Sometimes people just don't know how to control themselves so the more limited their avenue of dysfunction becomes, the better.

If the question stands, than you DON'T know what I was saying. Please read my posts again.

You asked me why I would stop running ops. I WOULDN'T. But there are more people than me that play the game and I can't run ops without others.
So? Is your goal to make these people stop playing?

1. Some players are primarily interested in the content.
2. Some players are primarily interested in gear drops.
3. Some players are interested in both.

I run operations with all three types. Selling 180-rated gear would reduce the pool of players interested in running Operations. It's that simple.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Yes. I am attempting to get to the underlying psychology of what causes the problem. In the end, I think if people look a little deeper than "it's P2W!!!!", they might find that their reasons for objecting to something (or thinking that they need to play something in a particular way) is not really valid.

Again, I do know what you are saying and the problems you have encountered. The questions being asked aren't being directed at you specifically but at the general "you" of people who think things must be a certain way without putting any further thought into why it is that way and why there might be a different way to do it.

No. My reasons are stated above.

And I find it an interesting study to get to the underlying psychology of that dichotomy and the possibility of exploring the median ground that would allow people to be satisfied with additional options of the loot chase. Ultimately, if one enjoys the content, then the reward is the content itself and the gear drops are secondary, thus making where the gear is acquired meaningless. If the gear is the primary goal of playing the content, then would it not be better suited for those players to have the gear attached to a piece of content that they particularly enjoy, if the current content is not satisfactory enough to be rewarding in and of its own right?

It's not hard to grasp at all. I grasp it quite well. I am simply attempting to get people to explore deeper into the psychology that causes it to occur. When that is understood, again, we might find that the problem is simply one of perception.

I would have to disagree in part with some of your statements. Ultimately, the responsibility lies with the individual with the issue, and to a lesser extent, the immediate family of said person. However, this conversation is better suited to an entirely different forum.

Because it's the cancer of the MMO world. Or just a legit cheats.

Fair enough.

Let me ask you a few questions then.

Are you in favor of 180-rated gear being sold directly on the Cartel Market? If so, what would be the benefits to the player? What would be the benefit to Bioware? What are the downsides? Do you think my expectations about what would happen with operations raiding are unfounded?

Fair point. I like to study the psychology behind various online phenomena too, so I will divulge the results of my self-analysis.

In addition to the already mentioned reduction in group availability, the root cause for me is that I don't like being inferior to others. This manifests in at least two different ways. Firstly, I don't like being carried. There would undoubtedly be a number of players who continue to do ops even after acquiring 186 gear. If I'm put in a group with mostly 186 gear and have anything less than 180 myself, I feel like I'm not pulling my weight.

Secondly, even though I try to avoid direct confrontations, as in PvP, I often compare myself to my peers. This is more important the closer ties I have to the target; friends and guildmates are more important than some random stranger I got pugged with. Getting suddenly eclipsed by someone close to me causes an emotional shock that may take a while to recover from.

Obviously, these reasons are rather irrational and even selfish. But such is the nature of emotions.

Well, I think we've treaded this ground previously in another thread, but to reiterate:

Personally speaking, I am in favor of a game offering every item (armor, weapon, pets, mounts, etc.) available in game not only for sale in a cash shop, but tradable between players and also available via vendors for in game currency.

The benefits of such would be that a player would then have his/her choice of how and when to acquire whatever items they want in the game: Playing "normally"; playing to acquire enough currency to buy from another player or from a vendor; or simply saving up enough to buy from the store.

The benefits to the game company is that there is another avenue of cash revenue from the whales, and the typical players who spend more reasonably and make judgements on the time it would take to acquire an item in game vs. the relevant cost in the cash shop.

Realistically speaking, it is obvious that the gaming community as a whole is not yet ready for such a concept as evidenced by debates similar to that in this thread and misconceptions the community tends to have in regards to things like grind, pay to win concepts, RNG, etc.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the ultimate reason for playing any game, and any particular piece of content in a game is because it is fun, enjoyable, and engaging, and thusly, worth doing over again. That is the reason why many people (such as myself), keep playing games for years, even though they are decades old and vastly outdated. There is still something about them that makes them worth going back to. Just this year, I have been doing YouTube videos playing some of my favorite games from back in the 80's and 90's, and am still having just as much fun doing that as I did when they were new and shiny.

The ultimate benefit for both the player and the gaming company is that if the rewards are more fulfilling than the content that awards them, then allowing players to purchase those rewards and skip the unfulfilling content will finally allow everyone to see what is the "Fun Factor" content, as players would then be free to play the content they enjoy the most without having to fetch after the bigger and better carrot. Games and content could then be designed with more and more of that type of content and thus games become more fun and more rewarding as a result.

Thanks for the comments, I think I follow.

There is a potential downside to offering end-game gear both in the cash shop AND as in-game rewards. All the company needs to do is increase the "grindy" portion of the in-game rewards to make the cash shop option more attractive, thereby increasing revenue.

There ARE games out there that offer a "pay-to-win" microtransaction approach. Whereby the cash spent is NOT for cosmetics, but in things that actually assist one in playing in the game. All the games like this that I know of are characterized by a rather unpleasant grind -- a much more significant grind than any in TOR.

The general gist of your viewpoint, as I understand it, is that people should be playing the game for the fun parts, not for the boring parts. The 64 million dollar question becomes:
I believe the answer to this question is "Yes it would".

Another question along this lines is: If there is, I'd like to know what it is, because I've never seen one.