SW:TOR will experience the first ever overnight ecomonic crash of an MMO.

Just like in WoW and Lotro guilds will continue to recruit they will continue to ban together but only now they will have goals and objectives they are striving for. How any intelligent person can think that is a bad thing is mind blowing.

I don't think the worries TUXs expressed for new players are too far off base. I'm not convinced that the entry price for guildships should be lowered, but I do share some of his concerns for players that are fairly new to the game.

I was a player who took a long hiatus from the game. I was away from the game for 2 years until about 2 or 3 months ago. However, I know how to play the market and was able to get back to level cap and have a healthy amount of credits in only a few weeks, but I was only able to do so because I had a level 50 Jugg in what was considered the best gear in the game 2 years ago. I had no trouble getting straight into new content and was wearing mostly all 162+ gear in no time at all.

New players though will need a lot more time to achieve this. My concerns though, are more in regard to the guilds that haven't even formed yet. To a group of fairly new players that are ranging in level from 10-40, even if there are 30+ active members in the guild, its going to take them a lot of time to farm 50 million credits. Its not impossible, but it is intimidating to players who aren't in endgame content running Ops and dailies with maxed out crew skills.

In World of Warcraft they added a guild leveling system that included achievements and rewards that were desirable to new players, especially while leveling. This created a system where new players stopped forming their own guilds because even the ones who knew very little about the game or MMOs in general quickly learned they could progress much more quickly in a well-established guild where the guild members had already done the weeks to months long process of leveling the guild to max and unlocking all the perks. New guilds stopped forming. Eventually, even old players became reluctant to form new guilds because nobody could recruit players that were willing to invest the time and energy needed to level the guild when they could just join an existing guild that was already leveled to max.

I see this happening in SWTOR. Newly formed guilds will likely wither and crumble under the pressure of having to farm the credits to catch up with the already established guilds who have already bought a flagship. Small guilds will begin merging together to pool resources in attempts to catch up with the more progressed guilds. Even after multiple merges, many of these guilds will ultimately fail due to loss of active members through attrition as they leave for other guilds that a more progressed.

This creates a stagnant environment for new players where there is a lot of pressure to join progressed guilds. While I know there are many guilds that will meet the progression needs of these players, I just don't think there will be many new guilds forming that last long enough to ever catch up with other guilds on their server. This creates a game where new players do not always feel very welcome, and this can lead to a major drop in the number of players because any MMO requires a steady influx of new players to offset the population losses of players that quit playing.

I saw WoW go through this already. In fact, that was probably one of the reasons I quit playing WoW. Implementing a guild progression system changed the game dramatically for anyone who wanted to start their own guild. Recruiting was a significant challenge for them because even the new players that didn't know how guild progression worked would usually end up leaving the guild in favor of a more progressed guild once they learned the ins and outs of guild progression, and WoW even had a mechanic to slow down "guild hopping" by dropping your guild reputation to a base level every time you leave a guild, then they tied that guild reputation to being able to access and use several of the perks that came with being in a fully progressed guild.

I don't think it's entirely fair to say that the credit gate is a an ok thing simply because there will be plenty of guilds with guildships ready to recruit the new players. I'm sure this will be true, but it ignores the problem that there won't be as many new guilds forming. And it also ignores the fact that new players who want to start a new guild will be hard pressed to find recruits that stick around and help contribute to progressing a new guild unless those recruits have strong ties to the guild or guild leaders, and those kinds of ties usually only come from knowing each other in real life, or through spending a great number of hours playing together in a guild. The situations where a newly formed guild will have what is needed to progress and farm the credits needed for a guildship will likely be in the minority.

New players though will need a lot more time to achieve this. My concerns though, are more in regard to the guilds that haven't even formed yet. To a group of fairly new players that are ranging in level from 10-40, even if there are 30+ active members in the guild, its going to take them a lot of time to farm 50 million credits. Its not impossible, but it is intimidating to players who aren't in endgame content running Ops and dailies with maxed out crew skills.

Could you at least try to discuss this like a mature adult, or are the baseless insults the only vernacular you are capable of mustering. I don't have an issue with people having different opinions from my own, but it would be nice if we could discuss them as adults instead of this childish banter you are throwing around. The Ad Hominem attacks are simply not necessary, and are in fact, a form of trolling. If you wish to continue treating those who disagree with you like the village idiot then please let me know so I can just add you to my ignore list and spend my time discussing these issues with the adults who can control their baser impulses.

Nice to see a post that doesn't just try to debase the debate (pro or con) with various insults, but actual try to argue his/hers point of view. A rare treat

However I do disagree with some of the elements in your otherwise well structured presentation.

1) Guildship is a -optional- feature designed to give guilds meaningful content to do with eachother, that doesn't evolve around operations or pvp exclusively. In short, noone (guild or person) is required to partake in this content, anymore than they would be required to do operations, pvp or loitering on the fleet, if that's their fancy. Nor will the game post-2.9 become exclusively focused on Conquest-content, which might otherwise have made the content "de-facto mandatory". Operations, flashpoints, pvp, strongholds, quests, dailies and so on, will continue to be developed and playable -in their own right- for people that isn't taking part in the Conquest, for whatever reason. In essence, Guildships will play the exact same role as simply a feature of the game, just as GSF does already, i.e. something the player/guild can do, if they want to partake in it.

2) The guildship is a sign of accomplishment for guilds, something for them to be proud of having achieved to be able to do things together. The content that it gives access to is designed to be something for guilds to achieve together. In short: it's content catered to guilds, not individual players. Individual players has plenty of feature to engage in already, and even more if they desire just to play with a few friends. This content is a feature for people who wants more the enjoyment of playing together with more people than just a few close friends and make meaningful achievements together. And as noted above, not playing this perticular feature does not diminish the players options for other content in generel. Its simply a social accomplishment that signifys a dedication to eachother as a community

3) New players: They do already have a consirable amount of content catered specifically to them. The entire leveling process and the engrossing stories they have, viable pvp from level 10, flashpoints and so on. Things that they can do solo and in their own time. If they wish access to a the guildship content aswell, then yes they will need to group up with other people to get the credit required to even begin down this part -aswell-. But how does that diminish the value of guildship as content, rather than actually increase it? A large part of the joy of MMOs is the fact that you do need to work together with others to achieve allot of the things within the game. It's why it's called an MMO, rather than a single-player onlinegame.

4) Guild benefits in WoW and a single (guild) feature in SWToR is a rather "stretched" comparison. In WoW it wasn't just a single feature of the gameplay, but something that you'd benefit from in every single part of the game. Guilds in SWToR will still have access to the leveling and reputation bonusses once 2.9 hits, which would be the more accurate comparison.

While guilds will undoubtably strive for getting access to guildships and the derived content, why would it impact on the forming of new guilds, as having the various bonusses in WoW(not really) did (either)? (Loads of guilds were still formed, and unless you aimed exclusively at being a "leveling" guild before getting all the bonusses, your options for recruiting weren't really that effected) The amount it cost to acquire a guildship isn't exactly game-breaking unless you're, per your example, only populated by lvl 10-40's, in which case you wouldn't really be able to take advantage of the Conquest content either. Guilds will still have every oppotunity to keep on existing and functioning while they save up for a guildship to eventually get access to that content aswell. If a given player would join your guild solely for the guildship, then that person is truely missing the point of the content entirely, so why would such a player suddenly become desirable to guilds? Why would it suddenly become markedly different to create new guilds? Even now people will leave guilds for greener pastures/disagrements/for the cookies and so on, this is simply a fact of (MMO) life. Raiding guilds compete with eachother (amongst other things) on progress/pvp on pvp/social on social factors and so on. Guildships will just be another factor in the mix, not the ultimate reason for people choosing which guild to be their "online-home" if you will.

You pretty much said new player will quit playing because they are weak, not dedicated enough to pursue goals set before them?.

In no other game has adding guild housing caused new players to stay away. In no other game has adding guild housing killed the small guild. I'm sorry but facts disprove your assessment.

WoW had their highest population after guild achievments were added. If what you said was remotely accurate it would have been the opposite. Now I am not saying people joined WoW for that just saying they didn't leave WoW like you said they did. Now if you don't like taking in facts and having your incorrect comments corrected by facts then yes please add me to your list.

Many of the reasons you listed are why I'm not sure that the price should be reduced. I want the achievement to be meaningful, and if the bar is set too low, then the rewards aren't in line with the effort required.

I don't think there is a way to measure the impact these features that revolve around guild progression have upon new players, but I feel to deny that they have any impact is akin to burying my head in the sand. The impact could be minimal as you suggest, or it could be nominal as TUXs suggests. In the end, only time will tell.

Honestly, the truth most likely lies somewhere in between the two sides of this debate. How heavily it leans one way or the other is largely indeterminable, which is why I think the price should remain at 50 million. However, given how discouraging it can be for new players who form new guilds and are trying to catch up with established guilds so they can compete with them for new recruits more successfully, I think the price should be reevaluated at regular intervals. BioWare has access to a ton more data than we do as players. As players we are largely limited in perspective to our own experiences, and as individuals and even as collectives of individuals (ie... guilds), our experiences are biased. If BioWare looks at the data though sees that a majority of newly formed guilds are disbanded at a rate that is significantly larger than the same statistics from before the guildships were released, I think this would indicate that there may be a need for an adjustment to the introductory price, but the reward should still be representative of the effort require to achieve it.

I'm largely on the fence still about this issue. I just felt that TUXs was being given a hard way to go for having legitimate concerns and thought I'd share a few thoughts that could provide a little more perspective.

And thank you as well for knowing how to discuss differences of opinion openly and earnestly in a constructive manner! It is quite refreshing.

First - thank you for taking the time to understand my concerns. It's far more than most people do and I genuinely appreciate that you did.

I understand credits are cake for some players to earn, they aren't for others. While we all have the same means to earn them, some players are simply more dedicated, while others are far more casual. SWTOR is a casual game, easy to step away from, easy to return to, easy to gear up...making credits though, especially making 50 million, isn't a "casual" task.

My fear is that the 50 million credit entry point will be too much of a barrier (mental or real) for too many guilds (old and new), which will result in less players participating in Galactic Conquests and less content for players unwilling/unable to come up with 50 million credits.

This past year, SWTOR has been starved of content. Releasing this new update with the first piece of GUILD content ever, but locking it behind a 50 million credit barrier, will rob many groups of players of this much needed content. There is NOTHING good about that imo. There's nothing positive for this game, by having the entry point so high, that many players won't have access to it..."then they can do personal conquests", not the same. Guild content is GOOD content and NEEDED content...the entry point is just too high. Keep the overall cost the same, but the entry should be more attainable.