Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

So when are the Deathmatch cap ship guns getting turned back on?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
So when are the Deathmatch cap ship guns getting turned back on?

ptwonline's Avatar


ptwonline
08.03.2014 , 10:50 PM | #1
Do you have any idea how many GSF players you are losing because they get into games where dominant teams just sit there and farm all the spawn points? Players are getting killed within 5 seconds of spawning over and over and they can't do anything about it since all three points are farmed.

Yiou're driving away so many players.

Ryuku-sama's Avatar


Ryuku-sama
08.03.2014 , 11:24 PM | #2
So sad... You know it was worst before.. cause the dominant team was the one standing at spawn and waiting for their cap ship to do the job??
"If it wasn't broken, we shall break it. If it is balanced, we shall beat it until slow and painful death follows. If it is overpowered, it is working as intended." - Bioware 2015

Verain's Avatar


Verain
08.04.2014 , 12:38 AM | #3
I really don't think we are "losing players". I'm so tired of this argument. It's a forum full of Boss Tweeds: "If you don't do exactly as I say you'll never work in this town again!"


For what it is worth, I'd assume never. There's several ways to prevent spawn camping without turning the turrets back on, and other ways to turn the turrets back on without allowing the rare degenerate play we used to see, but all of those are kind of big changes, and this was a reasonable and small change that prevented some stalematish/mild exploitation. It's not the best way, but it's something.
"The most despicable person on the GSF forum."

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
08.04.2014 , 10:05 AM | #4
OP, what do you expect coming from turning back the turrets on ?

Not being killed next to your capital ship ? Okay.

But what will happen a few km further since the enemies are able to push you there ? You'll get killed, just further.

And what will happen if you decide to not get out of the safe area ? Nothing. Both team will look at each other, aimless. The score won't move anymore, you'll wait until the end of the timer. Some will get kicked from inactivity.


Turrets, guards, safe zones...
...In domination-type matches, capture-the-flag-type matches (and so on), they achieve something. They limit the frustration of the losing side, while the winning team isn't stopped from winning thanks to the other scoring sources. The match will stop, even if it takes slightly more time (kills are usually a "glass of points" in the the "scoring ocean").
The victory may seem less "tasteful" for some inviduals, but is still "on the way". People may not be achieving victory the way they meant it, but are still achieving it.

... but in deathmatches, where only kills counts, they achieve nothing. Outside of exploits they make possible, they limit the furstration for one side, and turn it into frustration for both sides as both are simply doing nothing. Scoring just stops. No one is achieving neither loss or victory.
The match unecessarily lasts much longer, and if there weren't a timer, end and victory would also be denied.
It's not better, and they end making things worse because of the afore mentionned exploit they make possible.

TrinityLyre's Avatar


TrinityLyre
08.04.2014 , 10:23 AM | #5
Here's my only reply for this (extremely dead and beaten) topic:

Hopefully never.

Carry on.
Anastasie / Phytia The Bastion
Respected and Despised & Spouse Aggro
Check out my Galactic Starfighter Compendium and contribute!

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
08.04.2014 , 10:29 AM | #6
I agree that there are probably some new players that have a very bad experience getting spawn-farmed. Whether it's enough that they quit GSF altogether, I can't say. But it is sub-optimal.

That being said, I agree with Verain that simply turning the turrets on again will make things worse. It won't significantly improve the experience of new pilots, but it will allow lots of stalemating and/or exploit wins.

There have been a couple of other threads where people have proposed more nuanced solutions. I don't know that I've seen a perfect solution yet, but there are ideas that would improve the new player experience while also preventing exploits or stalemates. The trouble is that those nunaced solutions would take development resources that GSF is already starved for.

I will say that, for the most part, I rarely see people purposefully and deliberately "spawn camping". Rather, I think that the winning team just naturally pushes back the losing team. Everyone who plays GSF tabs to a nearby target and seeks to destroy it. As you destroy the closest targets, eventually when you tab next, you target someone who is returning from spawn, and you move to intercept them. That brings you toward their spawn point. Over time, this gets worse and worse, until you are literally on top of the spawn ship.

I know I've been surprised to find myself suddenly next to the enemy capital ship. Whether or not I stay there depends on the score of the match and quality of the competition--but most of the time I am driven away or killed because I'm suddenly surrounded by a bunch of foes. Or because people choose another spawn point and I go to intercept them.

Also note that your own capital ship is a great place to set up a Bomber/Gunship field. Creating your own capital ship turrets out of mines, drones and railguns. Use your capital ship structure for LOS.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

RatPoison's Avatar


RatPoison
08.04.2014 , 11:10 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Ryuku-sama View Post
So sad... You know it was worst before.. cause the dominant team was the one standing at spawn and waiting for their cap ship to do the job??
And yet most people who've commented about cap ship turrets can't cite matches where this occurred. In fact over the course of GSF, this complaint has only been noted on a couple of servers by a couple of pilots. I personally have never seen the winning team hide at their cap ship. Could it happen?, most certainly but using this as an excuse or omitting that it was by far not a common occurrence muddies the conversation due to a lack of perspective and comparison.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
That being said, I agree with Verain that simply turning the turrets on again will make things worse. It won't significantly improve the experience of new pilots, but it will allow lots of stalemating and/or exploit wins.
Worse? Doubtful that it'll make anything worse. The most it'll do is give the same group of people who've complained about a stationary zone of death a continued topic to complain about. The simple point is that TDM hasn't improved or gotten worse in the absence of cap ship turrets through most matches.

And again, the conversation is muddied and the perspective warped by using an inaccurate claim that it would/will "allow lots of stalemating..." Hardly. Cap ship turrets had very little impact during TDM beyond catching a would be pursuer going *** when they're blasted out of the sky in a hot and heavy pursuit.

Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
OP, what do you expect coming from turning back the turrets on ?

... but in deathmatches, where only kills counts, they achieve nothing. Outside of exploits they make possible, they limit the furstration for one side, and turn it into frustration for both sides as both are simply doing nothing. Scoring just stops. No one is achieving neither loss or victory.
What would I expect from turning the turrets back on? A safe spawn location for pilots. I think that much is obvious.

So why do you think they achieve nothing? PVP traditionally grants teams a safe spawning location... and if they don't it's likely because the match ends when everybody has died, much like our 4v4 arenas. However, in GSF... unless you get killed, you can sit and camp an area endlessly. So there are some ends and outs... such as spawning in one of the other two locations. Fair enough, but in the matches for which this topic is typically referring to... you know, those matches of <5 kills versus 50, where one team absolutely dominates... it is safe to say there isn't much to keep the wolves at bay.

...

The same people who declare that cap ship turrets shouldn't be on refuse to acknowledge that simple solutions to the problem exist and that by all rights, players should be able to spawn safely outside of the range of a gunship, not within a bomber ball, and away from the buzzing shots of scouts. These folks complain about the turrets because they tend to slow down their inevitable victory, but they don't seemingly want to acknowledge that even in the past, there were always pilots on the losing side who left the safety of the cap ships to fly to their inevitable demise. The scoring may slow, but it never stopped outright.

I've listed out a simple solution to the problem, one that eliminated the often over-stated event of the winning team hide, while also providing safe spawn to a team that was being utterly decimated. Most of you participating in this thread have likely seen it.

Rather than being intellectually dishonest to the OP, why not be honest about what the reality was with the cap ships... how often they actually were a factor and what those scenarios were, and then perhaps consider that if the goal is to expand the appeal of GSF... that turning the turrets back on (with potentially some nuanced changes) would be better than doing nothing than defending the would be over-zealous pursuers.

Hell... I'll even give you a new solution here and now... rather than having cap ship turrets blasting most fighters out of the sky in 2-3 shots... decrease the power of their shots further. Yeah, it's a bit wimpy to think a cap ship couldn't blast out a small ship quickly, but I think most would overlook this detail. Don't think this simple change is enough?, how about coupling it with the previous suggestion I've made.

There is a middle road folks.
Saevius : Marauder
- I n s u r r e c t e d -

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
08.04.2014 , 12:11 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by RatPoison View Post

I've listed out a simple solution to the problem, one that eliminated the often over-stated event of the winning team hide, while also providing safe spawn to a team that was being utterly decimated. Most of you participating in this thread have likely seen it.
Yes, your solution (cap turrets only defend losing team) would be fine in my opinion, and would improve the situation.

I don't really care about victories being slowed down a bit.

But I do care very much about winning teams retreating to their capital ship to wait out the clock. We've seen people do that with BomberGunship balls--frequently--and that actually requires effort and coordination, and is not foolproof.

You think they wouldn't do it if all it takes is spawning and sitting still, with guaranteed success?

So no... if someone comes in here and simply says, "Turn the turrets back on" I will vehemently disagree.

But if someone says, "Turn the turrets back on, with these nuances to prevent exploits" I will gladly engage in that conversation.

But that conversation has been had, at length, in the other thread. Your suggestion, I feel, was the best one. Maybe you should make it in an OP, so the devs (if any are left in this forum) see it.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

SammyGStatus's Avatar


SammyGStatus
08.04.2014 , 01:13 PM | #9
Ratpoison, as one of the people who played the very first day to today, the death of cap ship turrets in TDMs is a freakin blessing - I can remember A LOT of matches where the losing team sat back in their little "feel good ball" on their cap ship. I rolled GS specifically to kill those who would inadvertently travel outside their safety net.

No, when a team was down by 22 points and the score reads, 43 to 21 AND they were tired of ruining their KD, they retreated to cap ships and let the turrets offer them safety. THIS HAPPENED ALL THE FREAKIN TIME. Being better than an entire team meant nothing if you prevent the opposition from killing you, forcing an additional X minute wait. It wasn't fun to postpone the inevitable - flying in your little sphere doesn't make you better. In fact, you can do that very thing in the tutorial and not waste MY time because YOUR TEAM sucks. Period - I wouldn't keep a 1 legged, no eyed, blistering skin chipmunk on life support for 30 years because it's pointless. This is exactly what turning cap ship turrets does.

P.S. Your "safe spawn" idea is dumb. Press enter, tell everyone spawn up top. Oh that's where everyone was just spawning? Spawn bottom? What, they only have 8 players but you can't clear out either of those two spots? Spawn mid. The point of the game is to have space ship battles. Your safespawn idea is a waste and counter intuitive to what the game was designed for. Bringing these back would just be a waste of time and effort, and cause more problems than it would solve (If you're asking for this, I don't expect you to be as godlike as some others, which basically means the same thing as it does in the real world - suggests are best received and implemented from the top down. I don't trust the junior accountant to handle a multi-national corporation's finances when the CFO has A LOT more experience and general understanding).

P.S.S. We're saying this because we were here when they were implemented. They allowed for BS tactics that didn't involve any gameplay or strategy. "Hey, one scout leave while the rest stay at the base and get a kill, then we'll all hang back". ****, that is NOT a game worth playing. We've been through this before and there are much better options than this one. Hell, just giving the sides 3 spawns is enough. The worse team will lose regardless.
Renegade-One / Leggogurl / Aimbot / Even'ess / Status

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
08.04.2014 , 01:49 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by RatPoison View Post
So why do you think they achieve nothing? PVP traditionally grants teams a safe spawning location... and if they don't it's likely because the match ends when everybody has died, much like our 4v4 arenas. However, in GSF... unless you get killed, you can sit and camp an area endlessly. So there are some ends and outs... such as spawning in one of the other two locations. Fair enough, but in the matches for which this topic is typically referring to... you know, those matches of <5 kills versus 50, where one team absolutely dominates... it is safe to say there isn't much to keep the wolves at bay.
in traditionnal PvP, it is okay, because if the team falls back to respawn and can't get out of it, there are usually, contol points, or some kind of mechanics that allows the overwhelmingly winning team to score.
So even if nothing happens anymore, combat-wise, the match continues and it will end early, as it's due. You barely have the time to get bored.
In addition, kills are usually so meaningless compared to objectives that not being able to earn kills barely lengthen the duration.

Traditionnal deathmatches, are usually arenas, where you can't respawn farm, as you don't respawn. People chickening in the safe spawn area (when there's one) usually get kicked.

But in GSF deathmatches (or in any game that would get the same rule-set), It achieves nothing, because there is no difference between being attacked at spawn, and flying safely 5s before being attacked. The result is the same : you end getting farmed...

...until you not exit that area where nothing happens anymore, and we reach the situation I talked about before, enemies looking at each other, waiting for a timer to run out, no scoring pending.
So instead of ending early, it last to the maximum duration.

In that last situation, it only makes the match painful to both teams :
- one is waiting for their loss to be "official", and has to wait for a very long time
- the other one has the "normal victory" denied, and have their time wasted.
And this is not even accounting the inactivity timer that may come and kick people before the end of the match, denying them the right to claim their win, (or consolation prize when losing) because they have no means to be tagged as "active".
It's almost winner griefing (you ruined my day by being overwhelmingly strong, so I'll waste your time)