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Average Item Level Requirements for Flashpoints

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Average Item Level Requirements for Flashpoints

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
07.30.2014 , 10:31 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Dras_Keto View Post
And how many of the absurdly undergeared derps that queue up for HMFPs thinking they will get bolstered are actually experienced players who understand the ins and outs of their class and how to eke out every last bit of power out of it?

You cant present an extreme (and extremely unlikely) case and then use it to justify the general situation.

Besides, this thread has nothing to do with the quality or skill of the people you get in a random pug. It has to do with the people who are not ready for certain content being allowed by the system to get into it anyway. It isnt fair to the other members of the team that gets stuck with them, even if it is possible for them to "just deal with it."
Right, so what is your magic gear minimum that people have to have? You keep complaining about it but haven't even clarified what that is.

Unaugmented in Black Hole (146) gear, the recommended gear level for hard modes, a DPS actually will have around 18k HP, maybe a tad higher, I haven't checked in a while, also depending on what relics he's using and whether he went out of his way to maximize his mods/enhancements (which would actually lower his HP).

The problem is, everyone is so overgeared now that you have elitists moaning the second they see someone under 30k HP (or 35k even I've seen in some groups), people so bad at the game that they need to be carried themselves and cry because you obviously can't carry them.

If its not a super smooth "skip all skippable trash, SPACEBARRRRR, rocket boots between all trash and burn boss super quick" run a lot of people throw a hissy fit. That's the real problem (and this is coming from someone in full 180's/partial 186 that works on nightmare progression).

If you can only tolerate a hard mode when its one of those types of runs, queue up with guildies and make it happen. But don't expect pugs to give you that. The only thing I expect from pugs is the bare minimum gear required (146's I guess) and the ability to listen to directions, along with a polite attitude.
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Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
07.30.2014 , 11:03 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Unaugmented in Black Hole (146) gear, the recommended gear level for hard modes, a DPS actually will have around 18k HP, maybe a tad higher
Commando in 146 gear has ~22K HP:
http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...8-d16900158b3c

For the AMR, I picked gear bought with comms for the most part. Note that there is only one lettered mod, and only one enhancement that isn't low-endurance. So while not perfectly optimized gear, it is mostly low-endurance.

Your point about people being used to overgeared toons is valid. But someone that shows up for content with less gear than the recommended level shown right in the Group Finder itself isn't really doing anyone any favors.

I had a tank show up HM Mando Raiders with only 17K HP. Luckily, one of the dps was overgeared, and he ended up "tanking" by default (as the tank couldn't hold aggro).

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.30.2014 , 07:59 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Right, so what is your magic gear minimum that people have to have? You keep complaining about it but haven't even clarified what that is.
Its 148. How do you not know that?

Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
- Blah Blah Blah, self-righteous 'stuff.' -
All Im asking is for the people who queue up for random HMFPs to have what the game considers the minimum amount of gear you should have before trying that content.

Im not demanding that everyone be as geared as my characters are. Im not even asking for them to be good. All Im asking is that, at the bare minimum, their character is statistically prepared for whats in store.

You say that if I want all my flashpoints to be complete faceroll speedfests, I should make my own group. Irrelevant, because thats not what Im asking for. Not even close. In fact, I can turn that statement right back on you. Random HMFPs are not training academies for undergeared brainless twerps to come get carried to free loot and commendations. If youre expecting the people you get pugged with to cheerfully explain to you how to play the class you have been for the past 54 levels, jovially do all the work effectively a man down, and carry you through to loot and "glory" and be happy about it, MAKE YOUR OWN GROUP.

If someone cant pull their own weight, they dont have any business inflicting themselves on other people and expecting them to do it for them. Its rude.

And with bolstered KDY from 15-54, Bioware has only made the situation worse.

xeikonburns's Avatar


xeikonburns
07.31.2014 , 05:26 AM | #14
Oh man, item level requirements won't fix anything ...

With several pug runs with "well" geared 180 comm-gear junkies in my mind, the real reason for not getting past the droid boss cause of enrage was not gear, it was a lack of knowledge of the own class ...

I remember the first runs with guildies on the "old" 55HM with beeing freshly 55 after the release of makeb with my shadow tank, wearing a mix of augmented rakata & campaign token gear which gave me around 24k HP, while my dps had less than 20k HP ...

It was tough but doable, with those bonus bosses beeing really tough, but it worked!

So all those discussions about item level requirements are totally useless since it's not the gear that matters but skill ...
It's the totally wrong way to simply try to outgear content !
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Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.31.2014 , 07:05 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by xeikonburns View Post
Oh man, item level requirements won't fix anything ...

With several pug runs with "well" geared 180 comm-gear junkies in my mind, the real reason for not getting past the droid boss cause of enrage was not gear, it was a lack of knowledge of the own class ...

I remember the first runs with guildies on the "old" 55HM with beeing freshly 55 after the release of makeb with my shadow tank, wearing a mix of augmented rakata & campaign token gear which gave me around 24k HP, while my dps had less than 20k HP ...

It was tough but doable, with those bonus bosses beeing really tough, but it worked!

So all those discussions about item level requirements are totally useless since it's not the gear that matters but skill ...
It's the totally wrong way to simply try to outgear content !
Please explain how you test for and limit groups by skill. Or rather, dont even try because we all know already that such a thing is impossible. Id love for there to be an IQ test or in individualised interview that everyone is required to pass before they are allowed to queue for anything. It sucks getting saddled with idiots. But any thing you suggest along this line is NOT GOING TO WORK. PERIOD. Not the least because theres no way for Bioware to feasibly implement it.

So, once we eliminate all of the things that are clearly and obviously impossible, what do we have left? What might help the situation? What could we possibly do to prevent at least some of the people who should not be queuing up for hard mode flashpoints from doing so? What is the only method we already have in the game that objectively gives a measure of how powerful (or not) a character is? Their gear.

Would this prevent every single bad run of an HMFP for everyone? No, of course not.

Would this make every single pug HMFP a success? No, of course not.

But would it HELP the situation? Definitely.

At the absolute least, minimum iLevel requirements would mean fresh 55s would have to do something, put some tiny bit of effort into their character after derping through the last 54 levels before they go into radically different group based content.

There is no reason why a system like this should not be put into place. None.

DarthSpekulatius's Avatar


DarthSpekulatius
07.31.2014 , 08:00 AM | #16
the "minimum gear requirement" is actually the shortened (and more polite) Version.

actually it should be "minimum gear requirement so that almost any *censored* or group thereof who would equip alacrity and accuracy as a tank and have to look up the word "mechanics" in Wikipedia can do this"
which was to long, so they shortened it.
instead of looking at the useless gear score or the even more useless HP value would have been looking at the actual stats, or better jet watch them play.

a good DD will get good gear soon enough but a bad DD will be bad no matter the gear.

so instead of teaching people what they need to know in 4ppl modes, you want them to go into Operations and either wipe them or get carried, without learning anything at all in either case?

kick people (or leave) for pulling before the tank, kick them for being plain bad, kick them for not being able to learn, kick them because you don't like their skimpy cloths.

Do any of that, but kicking(or leaving) them before the first pull because of digits some anonymous Person wrote down after observing two squirrels, a cat and my grandmother clear the content (none of them had seen before) in off the shelf commendation gear with that rating somewhere, more then 20 patches(? (probably more)) ago. are you serious?

Quote: Originally Posted by Dras_Keto View Post
There is no reason why a system like this should not be put into place. None.
there's at least one very good reason it might get you (and others) off their lazy Asses and cause you to help others (and yourself maybe?!) improve, instead of discriminating them.
which by itself would be worth it

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.31.2014 , 10:31 AM | #17
I dont know where youre getting that. Im seriously questioning whether you even read the thread or looked at the title, decided what you wanted the posts to say, and then responded to your own imagination out of some need to spew indignant rage at something.

In any case, ignoring how angry you seem to be about whatever it is youre angry about.....

Hard Mode flashpoints are not where you go to learn how to play. Its not the responsibility of anyone there to teach you anything beyond a simple explanation of boss mechancis that realistically you should be able to grasp immediately on your own. There are a few out there that youd probably have to fail first before you could reasonably be expected to understand them without outside info, but not many. There is a reason why they are called Hard Mode flashpoints and not Introductory Learning Flashpoints.

Furthermore, as I have stated I dont know how many times now, Im not asking that people prove they have a functioning brain before they can use the group finder queue. I think such a requirement would make for marvelous improvement for everyone, but I dont for one second think its feasible. Im asking for their characters to be at the level they should be for the stuff they want to do.

If I tried to tell people that "Oh, Im level 55, that means I have a RIGHT to go do NiM DF/DP and you have to take me even though Im only in arkanian with a 2 set," everyone would, rightly, laugh in my face. This is the same exact situation. If you do not have the gear to reasonably do something, you should not be able to force other people to deal with you, even if it only amounts to wasting the time kicking you and waiting for a replacement.

Im not even saying that you should be barred from doing HMFPs if you dont have enough gear, Im only saying you should not be able to use the group finder to do them. There would be nothing preventing you from making your own group and getting your butt carried through it manually.

Im not even advocating an unreasonable barrier to being able to use the Group Finder. An average iLevel of 148 is trivial to accomplish. You get 5 free pieces of 156 gear just for doing a few missions on oricon. There are tons of incredibly easy dailies out there that reward either the commendations to get the gear or the credits to buy it. You can even start this entire process BEFORE you hit 55.

There is simply no legitimate logical, eithical, or even moral reason why this would be a bad or undesirable thing.

None. No matter how angry all you forum-democrats want to get.

CMonsterGT's Avatar


CMonsterGT
07.31.2014 , 11:47 AM | #18
It might be too late as this post went from a good idea to name calling and party generalizing. I have a recent experience with this, as I went to run a HM Athiss FP as a BH Healer. I had a mixture of 146, 156 and a couple 162 gear from doing the Xeno SM and HM runs the last week. Then I had an embarrassingly low 118 earpiece. Everything else was 146 or higher. I had 23600 hp. Before anything started, I had someone try to kick me. They said they needed a good healer. I'm thinking, ***, you haven't even seen me heal yet.

The kick didn't go through, so he quit. Luckily he was DPS so it filled up pretty quick. Then we proceeded to go through the entire flashpoint without anyone dying except for the sniper at the last boss of Vodal, where she set up to snipe smack dab in the middle of the purple circle. That thing kills QUICK!

So, I feel like that first guy missed out on a run, but I don't feel bad for him. I do think there should be a lower level gear lockout, but it shouldn't have to be that 148 gear average, maybe something like a 140 gear average, but something like 3/4 people of the group have to have the 148 average, with the 1/4 having to have above 140, lets say. You could even add something in the group finder like a check box for "You are willing to help newer toons" or "willing to work with groups less than X rating". The problem is, if you never get to run a FP, then you won't learn the mechanics.

I just believe if people are close enough, then give them a shot. And if they keep dying but the rest of us don't, then I feel like it makes me a better player since I have to try harder and use some of the more advanced skills to keep from dying or stay on top of my game and improve it.

The only thing that would be frustrating is if they are doing stupid stuff like aggroing a bunch of mobs, or pulling as a DPS or not listening to directions and boss fights. But those kind of things are gear-independent.

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.31.2014 , 12:10 PM | #19
Well, if you have a better label for the hordes of raging trolls who seem convinced its our job to hold everyone's hand and explain everything 20 times in 10 different ways, Id love to hear it. Forum-democrat just fits too well not to use.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
07.31.2014 , 03:21 PM | #20
I don't think anyone here has really disagreed with the notion people should have at least 148 level gear for a hard mode. What they're disagreeing with is when people do have that amount of gear and people still flip out on them.

As for your one isolated experience, that's just what that is. It hardly EVER happens. I play on an RP server and I can count the amount of times I've ever seen someone show up to a flashpoint in less than 148 gear on one hand. I can't even remember the last time it happened.

So acting like this is some huge problem that needs fixing is a huge exaggeration. It happens every once in a great while, big woop, and there is a votekick function so you can take care of it anyways. Things like PvP have a much larger problem with people showing up in bad gear, and in PvP you can't even reliably votekick.
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