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Please Devs, Enough with the Tactical Flashpoints as the Main Venue for "Content."

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
Please Devs, Enough with the Tactical Flashpoints as the Main Venue for "Content."

Damask_Rose's Avatar


Damask_Rose
07.25.2014 , 10:24 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Dras_Keto View Post
They were already.

The day they came out (technically that evening) I waltzed in with my PT and solo'd both, no guides, no PTS experience. The most difficult thing about each was recognising when to put Mako on passive. If they were dumbed down even further . . . ? God help us.

-----

As far as the whole "I want to be able to see all of the story with virtually no effort required on my part in any capacity, whether that be mechanical skill, class knowledge, or gearing" business. Thats just stupid. The main draw of a MMO is supposed to be the large, challenging group content. And I do mean large group. The original raids in wow? 40 person groups required. Im not sure I can put together a 40 person group of competent people on my entire server. 8 or 16 people is kinda paltry, but fortunate given how badly the game flopped.

Why is it these days that people feel like they are entitled to every single aspect of the game whether they are capable of achieving it, or not? It used to be, a game developer would respond to cries of, "Waaaah, its not fair that I cant do XYZ, because Im bad/antisocial/dont have the time/am just looking for the spiritual equivalent of Spider solitaire," with, "Yes, it is, thats the point. Go get better." Nowadays they feel like they have to mollycoddle because everyone is on the 'instant gratification with zero effort' train.

Ill probably end up on a 5 paragraph rant that will basically boil down to: WoW's success pushed the MMO market in to the mainstream resulting in the types of people who should be playing something like Call of Duty 59:'Insert military jargon here" or solitaire thinking they needed to play MMOs. This resulted in software studios feeling like they had to cater to "casuals" (read: lazy people who want everything with no effort, not actual casual players) and then forcing the game developers to dumb their games down (Ex. Activision > Blizzard). Blah Blah Blah, etc, the rest of the point should follow very clearly.

So, instead, Ill just stop with the above and then say this: Story Arcs need to conclude with operations grade content. If you arent good enough to do ops, too bad, go get better. If you cant find at least 7 other people willing to tolerate your presence long enough to do it, too bad, go adjust your attitude or something. If you dont feel like you should have to invest any time or effort in effectively beating the game, what the *bleep* are you doing in an mmo in the first place?
You have a very narrow idea of what an MMO is. You also have very narrow ideas about other people. There are very skilled, hard working players who prefer soloing, just as there are bad, lazy players who raid. There are very social soloers, just as there are very anti-social raiders. I know it's very hard to think past yourself to try and understand other peoples' perspectives instead of insulting them because they are different from you, but it is worth the effort.

I am curious why do you feel the main story should be a raid reward? (Why should it be a "reward" at all?) Aren't the bis armors, mats, schematics, mounts, pets, titles, achievements and soon to be trophies enough? Do you really believe anything and everything good in the game should only be achieved by raiding? Do you not think there should be fun things for everyone to enjoy?

Do you view everything as a contest? The idea of "beating" a story is just utterly bizarre to me. Is the idea of playing a game just for fun as bizarre to you? How do you judge when someone "wins" at role play, you know the other half of MMORPG?


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MWidowmaker's Avatar


MWidowmaker
07.25.2014 , 10:54 PM | #22
yes because the only way anyone should get more story is via ops which a lot of people either dont do or have trouble doing, and the h4rdc0r3 people spacebar through it anyways because epeen is a valid method of expressing any sort of creative content or storytelling....

right.....

tacs are the best way to do story if it must be in flashpoints so everyone, and not just mr epeen spacebar cowboy can actually go through it

DalekTheCat's Avatar


DalekTheCat
07.26.2014 , 12:13 AM | #23
Tactical flashpoints are always one of two things: an absurdist facerolling jaunt, or a half-hour painful meditation on how some players ever get to max level playing as badly as they do. Neither situation fills me with any sense that I am participating in an epic story as it unfolds.

Please, no more tacticals. If your skill or tolerance of other people is so low that you cannot master anything more difficult, be it a normal flashpoint or SM operation, you are welcome to watch videos of the content on Youtube or read a synopsis.

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.26.2014 , 12:19 AM | #24
And you have a very self-serving way of reading. This thread is about why constantly throwing in tactical flashpoints as "game content updates" is bad and the kind of prevailing attitude that causes it.

Its not about your little "OMG Diversity!" speech and its definitely not about the melodramatic trash that people try and pass off as "RP" in this game.

It also doesnt matter how much you try to obfuscate and smokescreen with irrelevant comments about there being social-soloers (***?) or antisocial-raiders (also ***?). A person's playing style preferences have precisely jack to do with this. Although, you really have to wonder why someone wants to play an MMO but tries to treat it like a single player game, and then gets all huffy when there isnt single player endgame content created just for them.

Quote: Originally Posted by MWidowmaker View Post
... via ops which a lot of people either dont do or have trouble doing ...
This, right here is the problem. And whats the cause of the problem? Tons of people playing the game who (and there is no other way to put this) should not be. And these people dont seem to have any willingness to put forth the tiniest smidgen of effort. They want everything handed to them gift wrapped and on a silver platter and they want it now. If they cant do something? Well, thats a FLAW with the game, CLEARLY nothing to do with them.

MWidowmaker's Avatar


MWidowmaker
07.26.2014 , 12:41 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dras_Keto View Post
And whats the cause of the problem? Tons of people playing the game who (and there is no other way to put this) should not be. And these people dont seem to have any willingness to put forth the tiniest smidgen of effort. They want everything handed to them gift wrapped and on a silver platter and they want it now. If they cant do something? Well, thats a FLAW with the game, CLEARLY nothing to do with them.
and who are you again? the self appointed arbiter of who should or should not play a game? seriously? your logic is flawed, because it can be turned around and people can say well people who only want to have a certain mode of gameplay should be off playing other games, and they shouldn't be here. you are probably too narrowminded to understand how ridiculous the argument really is.

fact is, the tacs give more people the avenue to experience the content, and that is not a bad thing. gating so that it can only be done in an op is foolish and a bad business model.

you really shouldn't generalize either, by saying people who dont raid are not skilled or have no clue, it makes you look as much of a doorknob as the people who really are clueless

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.26.2014 , 10:56 AM | #26
My logic is flawed? Really? And youre saying that people who want to play a massively multiplayer online game should look elsewhere? Really?

Really?

Seriously ....

MWidowmaker's Avatar


MWidowmaker
07.26.2014 , 01:07 PM | #27
actually, you are the one who said it. i just turned it back on you.
really.
seriously.
now you see how stupid the argument is?

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
07.26.2014 , 07:51 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Damask_Rose View Post
I am curious why do you feel the main story should be a raid reward? (Why should it be a "reward" at all?)
The "main story" was what your character participated in for 55 levels of content. It was epic, it covered multiple planets, and if you leveled multiple classes, it also had interesting crossovers.

That was the "main story".

Are you trying to say that anyone that raids deserves no story at all? No justification for getting a group of people together to accomplish something?

The fact that this game has an interesting story for raiders should be seen as a plus. Why do you want to ruin that?

sanctified's Avatar


sanctified
07.27.2014 , 12:36 AM | #29
I think it's great that casuals have a means of experiencing story content that isn't overly difficult, and in fact I support tactical versions of all current flashpoints to help encourage leveling players to expand their horizons past the KDY ghetto. There is nothing wrong with wanting to take things easy.

The issue is that better experienced, geared, and teamwork-oriented players deserve more challenging content. Hard mode versions of these flashpoints shouldn't be on a wishlist, they should be mandatory. Most players prefer playing alone? Fine. Bully for them. But the rest of us want to have fun too. It's not raid night every night, y'know. It would be nice to have something new to do involving smaller group content that still challenges us.

I write this as someone who isn't anti-casual, but rather as someone who is anti-boredom. I spend a lot of time running flashpoints just for the fun of it, but doing the same six over and over again has sucked the enjoyment out of it. I tank, I raid, I pvp, and I socialize with strangers; I even do the occasional bit of role-playing. Doesn't a well-rounded denizen of the Old Republic such as myself deserve more to do?

It really isn't a lot to ask.
Playing since October 1st, 2011. Squad 238 for life.

Dras_Keto's Avatar


Dras_Keto
07.27.2014 , 03:08 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by MWidowmaker View Post
actually, you are the one who said it. i just turned it back on you.
really.
seriously.
now you see how stupid the argument is?
Ok, so you cant read. Thanks for letting me know. Ill be sure to keep that in mind in the future.

Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
The "main story" was what your character participated in for 55 levels of content. It was epic, it covered multiple planets, and if you leveled multiple classes, it also had interesting crossovers.

That was the "main story".

Are you trying to say that anyone that raids deserves no story at all? No justification for getting a group of people together to accomplish something?

The fact that this game has an interesting story for raiders should be seen as a plus. Why do you want to ruin that?
The way that MMOs typically work is

Step 1: Questing/Leveling grind - You level up, see the world, explore around, have a rousing good time, all while learning the in's and out's of your class and how to approach things in the game.

Step 2: Small Group Content/Dailies - Here the focus is on learning how to function in a party and getting your character better equipped. The "story" continues within the context of progressively harder flashpoints, dungeons, whatever you want to call them.

Step 3: Endgame, Large Group content, major story arc resolution - This is what everything else has been leading up to. You take what you have learned in small groups and translate it into how to work cohesively in a large group to tackle the hardest stuff in the game. These 'operations,' 'raids,' whatever you want to call them resolve or advance the major conflicts OR add new arcs to the story.

The reason should be obvious, you progressively increase the difficulty of game as you advance the story. It makes no sense, for example, for Frodo and Sam, after having overcome the Nazgul in the wilds west of the Misty Mountains, made it through Moria, then the Dead Marshes, then the path of Cirith Ungol (might have the spelling wrong here, Im doing this from memory and I dont feel like checking) .... all to find out that Mordor was a happy, sunshine filled paradise with Chibi orcs frolicking about while watched over by a caring and tender Nanny Sauron. Sounds pretty fricking stupid huh?

Story advancement and conclusion is the entire point of operations/raids. They have no thematic purpose otherwise.