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What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
What's the point of being melee in this game with the current state of PvP

PloGreen's Avatar


PloGreen
07.16.2014 , 11:15 AM | #181
Quote: Originally Posted by Shikyo View Post
I, in detail, explained this to them already informing them that I understand their opinion and approach to melee but the classes were developed, defined, and balanced based on archetypes and that powertech was put in the melee archetype. They refuse to listen or understand this.

At this point it has broken down to specific specs now in the same archetype being ranged or melee as the specific reference to how pyro is ranged and AP is arguably melee. This would suggest then that lethality operatives are ranged and concealment is melee, madness assassin is range and deception melee...

I mean are they saying that they are not effective within 10m range? At this point I think they are saying that which is wrong and tells me they are not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in pvp.

I admit that some specific melee class specs can work better in the 5-10m range then others as far as pure damage, but the same can be said about ranged classes in 30-35m range.

Ex: lightening sorc vs madness sorc or mercs. A lightening sorc can stay between 31-35 meters and be effective where as a madness sorc or merc cannot. Snipers too can stay at 31-35m with the same effect.
Should they be considered long range and then longer range??

This is silly, but I just can't get through to them! Lol
Exactly it is just being pedantic. 6m or 5m is trivial. 20m is not, that is significant.

Sysyph's Avatar


Sysyph
07.16.2014 , 12:38 PM | #182
Guys why would you even debate about this ?

Instead lets just say that a good PT will only come into the 4m range for things like shockstrike, interrupts and carbonize as must opponents as possible. Rest really does not matter.
Meola Soulive
Cullzilla Slowhand Pcket Psychus

Tevzz's Avatar


Tevzz
07.16.2014 , 08:30 PM | #183
Quote: Originally Posted by Shikyo View Post
I mean are they saying that they are not effective within 10m range? At this point I think they are saying that which is wrong and tells me they are not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in pvp.
Meh, I pretty much quit the debate because people have different perceptions about what melee is and I'm done arguing, since we've pretty much started repeating the things we've been saying in different words. But I'd like you to explain what you meant in the passage I quoted, I didn't really get it.
Vanov - CarnageVanv - VengeanceDarrthvanov - DeceptionVnv - FocusVa'nov - APVnov - Concealment
The Shadowlands - Reading Rainbow - Triumph

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
07.17.2014 , 12:44 AM | #184
Honestly, I think this 10 plus pages worth of nothing is entirely down to certain people not correctly understanding their terms and definitions.

Melee is defined as hand to hand combat.
Ranged is defined as projectile.

The correct term you are looking for is close quarters combat. Close quarters combat includes all forms of combat, range or melee that take place within a restricted area. For instance, soldiers engaging each other in an urban setting using firearms, grenades, knives, etc.

Jugs/ Marauders are one of the few classes in this game that you can actually call Melee because their rage builders lock them into the 4m range. Powertechs on the other hand do the vast majority of their damage outside the effective range of the Jug / Marauder. For this reason you cannot classify the PT as melee but you CAN classify it as short ranged or a close quarters combat style.

@Raansa
I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.

chillshock's Avatar


chillshock
07.17.2014 , 01:08 AM | #185
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
Honestly,
It's been said over and over again. It will not get through.

Just accept that for some Pyro is Melee ... just not quite as melee as the other melee but melee. And we are wrong and should bow to superior understanding of the difference between melee, melee and ranged.

Shikyo's Avatar


Shikyo
07.17.2014 , 01:33 AM | #186
Quote: Originally Posted by Tevzz View Post
Meh, I pretty much quit the debate because people have different perceptions about what melee is and I'm done arguing, since we've pretty much started repeating the things we've been saying in different words. But I'd like you to explain what you meant in the passage I quoted, I didn't really get it.
Completely forewarning you, you asked me to explain that passage and it is one hell of a read.

Reading through the thread and the debate about melee, which places only juggernauts and marauders as melee classes, the argument stems around most of a juggernauts and marauders damage being done in 4m range and not 10m range which is being used to define them as melee. The common theme of them all is that the effective range of a melee class is 4m range and a powertechs effective range is 10m, thus making them ranged and not melee.

That explains why I said, "I mean are they saying they are not effective within 10m range?" Then I further state that I currently am of the opinion, based on their arguments, that they are saying or suggesting that, which is wrong.

Why is it wrong? and Why are they not approaching their class correctly as a warrior in PVP?

Well because quite simply a Juggernaut and Marauder's effective range is 10m.

Allow me to explain and I will be lumping all together under the assumption of basic knowledge of specs:
Class problem pointed out in thread- Warriors need to maintain 4 m or less for resource generation and primary damage output

Warrior's 10m abilities, minus force scream and vicious throw which are high damage attacks, are focused around snaring, rooting, and stunning to prevent escape and a gap being generated. This is done because of the fact that most of your resource gen and damage is done within 4m.

Examples include abilities such as Force Crush, Force Choke, Deadly throw, chilling screem ( the AOE snare), Obliterate, Force Push (finishes cooldown leap to then get back into range).

On top of the 10m range design, these classes and specs also come with increases to movement speed through forms and abilities along with added snares and roots to be applied while in 4m range to keep them with you. The also have built in immunity to stuns, roots, and snares for short bursts (vengeance) making it incredibly difficult to even escape 4 m range.

This means that within 10m range, as a warrior no matter the spec, you are effective as you have many tools at your disposal to do damage and bring them back into 4m range, to which you are then given additional tools to keep them there.

Now when building warriors for PVE you opt into PURE DPS INCREASE over things like snares and roots and they are not needed and wasted points in PVE and overall DPS output is on the highest priority. After all, NPC's aren't running away they are always face tanking you. PVE warriors, while still able to do damage at 10m range, have no problem staying within 4m range for 90% of their combat.

In PVP you do not build your spec the same way. You need to spec into the roots, snares, and movement increases as you will be dealing with enemies that will run and kite you trying to stay away, not face tanking. So whereas in PVE you priority is overall DPS over utility, in PVP it is the opposite, Utility comes before overall DPS. PVP as a dps is about controlled burst, not so much about sustained. Again, this is quite opposite to PVE building on multiple levels.

What I am seeing in the debate and "problems" being brought up such as a Powertech able to kite between 5-10m and the warrior is rendered useless, knowing the above information shared, is leading me to believe that aside from getting expertise gear, these people are approaching and playing the warrior in PVP as they would in PVE which is incorrect. Hence, not approaching the warrior class in PVP correctly comment.

While I directed this LONG response around what is being discussed, warriors, I should point out that the other 4 melee archetype classes all ultimately share the same end result - Effective range is 10m. The differences in them depend on their spec and overall class design. EX: Some of the classes have their primary DPS coming from 5-10m which also means they come with less snares, roots, movement increases, ETC; whereas, others will share the traits of a warrior by having their primary dps coming from 4m or less and come equipped with snares, roots, and movement increases tied to their 10m abilities. It's all a balancing act but they all must be within 10m range to be effective.

Sorry this was a essay and if it felt redundant to what you already know, but at this point in the thread I have no idea what people really know or don't know about the game they play.

Shikyo's Avatar


Shikyo
07.17.2014 , 02:16 AM | #187
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
Honestly, I think this 10 plus pages worth of nothing is entirely down to certain people not correctly understanding their terms and definitions.

Melee is defined as hand to hand combat.
Ranged is defined as projectile.

The correct term you are looking for is close quarters combat. Close quarters combat includes all forms of combat, range or melee that take place within a restricted area. For instance, soldiers engaging each other in an urban setting using firearms, grenades, knives, etc.

Jugs/ Marauders are one of the few classes in this game that you can actually call Melee because their rage builders lock them into the 4m range. Powertechs on the other hand do the vast majority of their damage outside the effective range of the Jug / Marauder. For this reason you cannot classify the PT as melee but you CAN classify it as short ranged or a close quarters combat style.

@Raansa
I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.
I honestly think it comes down to you not understanding game design, specifically this game, keeping in mind that this game is not another game....it is this game.

As for your real world reference and how you can't redefine words on a whim, words are always evolving and changing. That fact that you do not know this tells me you have limited experience with it in the real world or just have not noticed. Businesses, Youth, and culture consistently evolve and change word meanings through time and on a whim. The business of MMO gaming has done that exact thing with the terms of Melee and ranged and has been doing this over the past 10 years of RPG's in general. You are taking things very literal and in black and white. Most all of communication and words used can have a literal connotation and figurative connotation.

Here is a link for you of Melee and it's general use today along with some history. The cool thing in this link is it actually defines how it is used in gaming, which is what we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee


The fact that in your post you directly state that you would challenge a developer on how they classified their classes and designs on their game as wrong is enough of a clue that again, you can't take your own advise and just admit when you are wrong. It's like going to Picasso and telling him that he painted people the wrong way, thus his artistic creation is then wrong.

Also to the person I just replied to that was confused about my statement saying that people in this thread believe a warriors effective range in pvp is 4m and not 10m... I placed in bold and red a very fresh example of why I said that.

PloGreen's Avatar


PloGreen
07.17.2014 , 03:28 AM | #188
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
@Raansa
I don't give a toss if you pull the Dev card. If a developer erroneously stated that 4 - 10m is melee range, I would tell him the exact same thing I have told you guys. You don't get to redefine terms and definitions at your wim. If you could then nobody would know what the hell anyone was talking about and we would end up with a lot of wasted time on our hands. Not unlike that which has occurred in this thread.
Best comment of the thread.

This is hilarious.

Oh hang on a minute. This is a computer game with its own rules and laws where people can leap 30 metres, wave around light sabres, shoot lasers, and respawn when they die. But in this case you would tell the devs they are wrong because in real life death is permanent and they don't get to redefine what death actually means in their own game.

PloGreen's Avatar


PloGreen
07.17.2014 , 03:39 AM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by Shikyo View Post
I honestly think it comes down to you not understanding game design, specifically this game, keeping in mind that this game is not another game....it is this game.

As for your real world reference and how you can't redefine words on a whim, words are always evolving and changing. That fact that you do not know this tells me you have limited experience with it in the real world or just have not noticed. Businesses, Youth, and culture consistently evolve and change word meanings through time and on a whim. The business of MMO gaming has done that exact thing with the terms of Melee and ranged and has been doing this over the past 10 years of RPG's in general. You are taking things very literal and in black and white. Most all of communication and words used can have a literal connotation and figurative connotation.

Here is a link for you of Melee and it's general use today along with some history. The cool thing in this link is it actually defines how it is used in gaming, which is what we are talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melee


The fact that in your post you directly state that you would challenge a developer on how they classified their classes and designs on their game as wrong is enough of a clue that again, you can't take your own advise and just admit when you are wrong. It's like going to Picasso and telling him that he painted people the wrong way, thus his artistic creation is then wrong.

Also to the person I just replied to that was confused about my statement saying that people in this thread believe a warriors effective range in pvp is 4m and not 10m... I placed in bold and red a very fresh example of why I said that.
Rational response. Well said.

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
07.17.2014 , 08:36 AM | #190
Did you even read the wiki link you posted? LOL.

Oh and btw, these forums are filled with thread stacked upon thread of people challenging developers. Oh golly gosh! How dare anyone challenge a developer! The audacity! The developers are never wrong!

hey shikyo. I can do it too!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=melee

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/melee


http://doom.wikia.com/wiki/Melee_attack

https://www.wordnik.com/words/melee

http://www.wowwiki.com/Melee

You might want to give all these sites a quick email. Apparently they haven't caught on to the new definition of melee!