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Question: Initial Aggro Opener Skill -Should i Taunt or NOT?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Question: Initial Aggro Opener Skill -Should i Taunt or NOT?

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
07.11.2014 , 11:01 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
Amen.
not always amen mate.

Some operation bosses you can safely openup with a taunt. Take in mind the dread palace bosses are based on HM experience. While DF is NiM knowledge (personal and/or theorized).

TL;DR: When you can't afford to lose aggro and when you have a co-tank ready to taunt too its perfectly viable to openup with a taunt as 1st gcd or at least 2nd/3rd.

Nefra = open up with taunt, followed by AoE taunt. Your co-tank will have 3 stacks by than and will be forced to taunt ;-)
Draxus = if you use 2 tanks its okey to openup with taunts but not the best idea. Its however not bad to do.
Grobbie = possible since you get roared on pretty fast regardless
C zero = Safe to use tauntfluff but not the best idea. Again not bad to do
Brontes = Isn't it the whole idea to taunt her in phase 2 when she appears? I rather not risk here spraying the dps and healers.
Bestia = feel free doesnt matter at all. Unless you manage to not get the stacks you have to swap before you can get to your 2nd or 3rd taunt
Tyrans = openup with tauntfluffing to have the least chance of dps overaggro'ing you
Calphy = AoE taunt fluffing wont hurt but not really needed unless your dps are aggrokings/queens
Raptus = Opening up with a taunt may be a good thing since he might not be on you if you have dot specced DPS.
Council = On calphy I'm alwyas opening up with a taunt or right after i forcepulled him. I have a combat sent with me who often has his stars aligned. My single taunt is always ready for the tankswap

EDIT: just to be clear. The above isn't optimal and openers like KBN and leafy provided are always better if those will keep your aggro. The above is purely based on whats possible to do and why its not such a big no no as some people suggest.
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
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KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
07.11.2014 , 12:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by DogEyedBoy View Post
I've seen talk recently of tanks using adrenals in their opener. I understand the theory (I also remember KeyboardNinja tearing into somebody quite some time ago for their usage of a surge adrenal in their Assassin opener) but am wondering on the specifics.

Power, surge or accuracy; when's the best time to use one, and are there any fights where it's a definite no go due to the loss of a defensive cooldown?

Mostly interested in Assassin, but info for other classes wouldn't be unwelcome.
Surge really isn't worth using. None of the tank openers are lacking in damage. In fact, assuming nothing ever misses, none of the tank openers are really lacking in anything. The problem is that, at sub-110% accuracy, we do miss quite a lot in the opener. I don't like fights having any element of RNG, so that's the element I want to remove if I can.

When I open with an adrenal, I use accuracy. I do this on Bestia (because monster control is very important), Tyrans (because Tyrans agro is insanely vital) and…that's about it. I don't bother on Calphayus, because I'm keeping him almost perma-debuffed with taunts anyway. Raptus is sort of sketchy in the opening moments, but again perma-debuffing solves a lot of problems. I've thought about it for council, but I really haven't had any trouble controlling my boss, so I save the cooldown so I can use an absorb adrenal in the first phase. I would like to be able to use an absorb adrenal in Bestia's first phase, but monster control is more important. I wouldn't use an accuracy adrenal if I were tanking the doubled adds.

As for DF, you could use an accuracy adrenal on Grob'thok, but it's really not worth doing it on any other fight. If you go back to older Nightmare content, Writhing Horror, Kephess and TfB might be worth adrenaling, along with Dash'roode, Titan, Thrasher and Styrak.
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cisme's Avatar


cisme
07.11.2014 , 11:49 PM | #23
Honestly it depends on the fight. Some fights it's absolutely imperative that you turn the boss away from the raid ASAP. Also if you know that you're going to tank swap a few seconds after getting the boss then the 6 seconds taunt gives you can be enough. The easiest example for this is Brontes in HM when she comes down after the lightning tentacle phase. 2 seconds or so after she is targetable she will do a 4 second channel which will do a huge amount of damage to the raid if you let it. When I tank this I'll just taunt her because then she will face me, to the cast and give me 4 stacks of her debuff then I'll just let the other tank take her while I deal with Kephess. Most of the time everyone else here is right but sometimes when it's absolutely imperative you get instant aggro on a new enemy mid fight then you can taunt before everything else

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
07.12.2014 , 04:16 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by cisme View Post
Honestly it depends on the fight. Some fights it's absolutely imperative that you turn the boss away from the raid ASAP. Also if you know that you're going to tank swap a few seconds after getting the boss then the 6 seconds taunt gives you can be enough. The easiest example for this is Brontes in HM when she comes down after the lightning tentacle phase. 2 seconds or so after she is targetable she will do a 4 second channel which will do a huge amount of damage to the raid if you let it. When I tank this I'll just taunt her because then she will face me, to the cast and give me 4 stacks of her debuff then I'll just let the other tank take her while I deal with Kephess. Most of the time everyone else here is right but sometimes when it's absolutely imperative you get instant aggro on a new enemy mid fight then you can taunt before everything else

This post is not entirely correct, hence someone who is not aware of the way Brontes works may take this as accurate. First and foremost, Brontes is affected by healing aggro and if you pay attention, you will see that when she spawns in the middle, she will target one or both healers. She will cleave everyone in proximity to the healer / healers who have aggro. This happens because until that phase, the healing aggro, which is global on all NPCs, attracts her attention.


If you open with a taunt on brontes, with a group of people who actually do damage, you will burn the second taunt as soon as the first expires and if you resist attacks, they will pull again. Your management in this case is poor and I never open with a taunt on her as we know who will get the first 2 stacks in our group. You have failed to mention that when your group derps, you can't get to her instantly as she is isolated from lasers so a smart group would abuse healing aggro and make sure the person who has it is alone. If you are going to taunt her from 30m and jump on her when the lasers permit it then again you did not think it through fully.


I would also like you to apply the same methodology on Kephess, in NiM, where when he spawns he is on one of your healers. Please instantly taunt and see what happens . A good tank sees the whole picture and prevents nastier things happening than instantly taunting a boss and then losing aggro, having nothing to pick it back.

On a final note, if you think I am easily phased by a dps shadow, infiltration spec, who opens with over 20k by the time I reach my third global and I taunt with panic attacks you are mistaken. A tank's opener is optimal if done right and taunts have no place in the first globals.


At the end of the day, people can read this topic, ignore everything and continue doing what they want. The world will not end if you opt to 'hold aggro' by spamming taunts. Some of us in this thread portray another way of tanking where the message is : taunts are important but tanks have the right tools* to hold aggro when played according to your damage dealer composition.


*exceptions apply of course where NPCs are programmed to drop aggro on a tank.

cisme's Avatar


cisme
07.12.2014 , 01:02 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
This post is not entirely correct, hence someone who is not aware of the way Brontes works may take this as accurate. First and foremost, Brontes is affected by healing aggro and if you pay attention, you will see that when she spawns in the middle, she will target one or both healers. She will cleave everyone in proximity to the healer / healers who have aggro. This happens because until that phase, the healing aggro, which is global on all NPCs, attracts her attention.


If you open with a taunt on brontes, with a group of people who actually do damage, you will burn the second taunt as soon as the first expires and if you resist attacks, they will pull again. Your management in this case is poor and I never open with a taunt on her as we know who will get the first 2 stacks in our group. You have failed to mention that when your group derps, you can't get to her instantly as she is isolated from lasers so a smart group would abuse healing aggro and make sure the person who has it is alone. If you are going to taunt her from 30m and jump on her when the lasers permit it then again you did not think it through fully.


I would also like you to apply the same methodology on Kephess, in NiM, where when he spawns he is on one of your healers. Please instantly taunt and see what happens . A good tank sees the whole picture and prevents nastier things happening than instantly taunting a boss and then losing aggro, having nothing to pick it back.

On a final note, if you think I am easily phased by a dps shadow, infiltration spec, who opens with over 20k by the time I reach my third global and I taunt with panic attacks you are mistaken. A tank's opener is optimal if done right and taunts have no place in the first globals.


At the end of the day, people can read this topic, ignore everything and continue doing what they want. The world will not end if you opt to 'hold aggro' by spamming taunts. Some of us in this thread portray another way of tanking where the message is : taunts are important but tanks have the right tools* to hold aggro when played according to your damage dealer composition.


*exceptions apply of course where NPCs are programmed to drop aggro on a tank.
I'm not sure if you read what I wrote but I know that I won't have aggro for more than 6 seconds so the taunt is more than enough. It's not like I stop my rotation but I need aggro on her the moment she spawns not taunting wipes us

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
07.12.2014 , 02:01 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by cisme View Post
I'm not sure if you read what I wrote but I know that I won't have aggro for more than 6 seconds so the taunt is more than enough. It's not like I stop my rotation but I need aggro on her the moment she spawns not taunting wipes us
I don't think you understood what I wrote my friend. . She wipes you because you all stack with the healers, who by default have aggro from her. By stacking with the healers, it means all of you get cleaved. But if you isolate your healers, one, person is going to get cleaved for 2 gcds? Sorry I cannot make it clearer than this . My post was quite clear how the 'wiping mechanic' works which is hardly any panic as you know who will get the two original stacks.

I explained a mechanic which you did not understand hence you opened with a taunt. If you open with a taunt and the boss dies, do not take into account what I say. In my group, we know exactly who will get a few stacks before the tank taunts. It is not a life and death scenario if done right and we never open with a taunt on her.

fire-breath's Avatar


fire-breath
07.12.2014 , 05:48 PM | #27
leafy, you both know how brontes works. I also know she works.
The way I see it:

Option a
Don't taunt and let a healer take damage while you get aggro the normal way.
pro: you have an extra taunt to use on either an orb or kephess clone
con: healer takes damage
Scenario:
Brontes appears and sprays a healer or the whole group with 1 or 2 arcs. After the cast the tank who took aggro on brontes will go off to tank the clone (which spawns almost immediatly after the channel).

Option b
Taunt the boss and take the damage yourself.
pro: you take damage. Since the healers most likely were not sleeping they precasted heals on you.
con: You 'wasted' 1 taunt which might come in handy on a Kephess clone
Scenario:
Brontes appears and sprays the tank who taunted her. After the cast that tank will go off to tank the clone.

Unless NiM mechanics are way different that what I portrayed I don't see any harm at all with option b.
The only real downside is not having your taunt ready on a clone. But than again you won't have enough taunts for every clone and/or tankswap assuming a tankswap at every channel.

Since you are a shadowtank I assume you are using resilience on the 1st cast. This offcourse makes the story different since your co-tank won't be there for a long while. But than again ...... I did state it as a prerequirement to have your cotank ready with a tauntswap ;-)

EDIT:
Just to clear. An arc hitting the whole raid won't or shouldn't cause a wipe perse. Its not helping either ofc but the incoming damage on at least HM never killed my opsgroup
Progression raiding toons on the big RED
Macewindy - Sab Slinger Sărăh - Shadow Tank

PugsloveHP - the 50k HP commando DPS/healer

AAAAzrael's Avatar


AAAAzrael
07.13.2014 , 03:05 AM | #28
I always taunt, it won't do my healer taking damage from this. I never loose aggro there, as after taunt runs out we tank swap.
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DogEyedBoy's Avatar


DogEyedBoy
07.13.2014 , 04:43 PM | #29
I'm not sure why you'd let anyone but tanks (or anyone at all with a Shadow/Assassin tank) take stacks at the start of that phase.

Even in NiM it's easy for the tank to be positioned at the entrance/exit portal and the rest of the raid the opposite side behind the boss when she spawns.

I taunt, pull, shroud and use 3 stacks recklessness force lightning. I then have max stacks of dark protection while having received no debuff or damage at all. I continue my hybrid rotation, sprinkle in an AoE taunt, pop blackout in time for it cover the next arcing assault and then swap.

This sees shroud come off cooldown in time for me to take the final orb going into the transition and have recklessness back in time to use on the first droid.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
07.15.2014 , 03:52 AM | #30
If Brontes attack your healers/dps when she spawned you are doing something wrong.

Let your Sin use phase walk right in the middle where brontes will spawn. He has to teleport after the last hands spawned and taunt the boss. When brontes finished her cast the other tank taunt brontes, sin will go to get kephess. He still has an aoe taunt if kephess should run to a dps. This is not really the toughest phase of the fight and there are a lot of videos showing how it can be done.
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