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[Serious] Can We Save The Republic PvP?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Server Forums > The Ebon Hawk
[Serious] Can We Save The Republic PvP?

WhistDarkblade's Avatar


WhistDarkblade
06.30.2014 , 08:04 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Azurestone View Post
Actually queuing without a healer can be fun sometimes because you are under the pressure to kill everybody before you run out of cool downs.
This is great!! Too bad shadow only has two that are worth anything. Three if you throw in stealth out & heal.
Ebon Hawk

Whist || Republic
Mutilage || Silent Council

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
06.30.2014 , 08:07 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Azurestone View Post
First, don't classify a other players as crappy players. Everyone's got potential and people need time to tap into their potential and practice.

Second, it's not premade's fault. We have a perfect example of separating premade queue and solo queue, it's called ranked match making. That certainly facilitated ranked warzones.
First, I'm being a realist. OK, instead of crappy, we can use skilled and lesser skilled. Regardless, it is what it is. Potential or not, some players will never reach that potential, but they still queue and make queues pop and I'd never begrudge them for it because that's how we keep our population going.

Second, I never insinuated that it was anyone's "fault". Its just a fact of what the situation is. And ranked would work fine if there were a large enough player base that similarly skilled players and groups could be matched up with each other, but that simply isn't the case with this game, and never will be unless cross server queues are added (they likely never will).
Kandel - Juggernaut Kaelden - Guardian
Nyeetra - Assassin Milarra - Sage
Lendros - Mercenary Jakor - Vanguard
Iseline - Operative Lysandere - Gunslinger

Nezumi's Avatar


Nezumi
07.01.2014 , 10:12 AM | #23
I think it's totally within the means of this server's PvPers to save and significantly improve republic PvP. Frankly the biggest issue isn't premades, or too many imperials, though lopsided queuing can be an issue, it's a lack of competence or ability that has come to be expected from 55s and even 30-54.

I believe that if we make a concentrated effort to spread knowhow, and give advice as well as pub side pvping classes then the swell of republic scrubs will drop considerably. Replaced with capable pvpers.
Empire Ebon Hawk
Vexos - Vedris - Dageus - Vaedrion - Seithe - Tyber - Alecxandyr
Republic
Dacarus - Korrenth - Garyth - McGrath - Merodrion

Moontayle's Avatar


Moontayle
07.01.2014 , 10:38 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by QuinMantha View Post
I think I've done Ground PvP on exactly one character across my Legacy on TEH. It just didn't take for me.

For one, I'm not a big fan of being as big a jerk as I possibly can be in order to win. While that may end me up with a label like 'RP-PvE care bear extraordinaire', I find that the sting of such nomenclature comes off when I look at how many others on TEH seem to have the exact same mindset. Maybe it's the group I hang out with, but Republic players on Ebon Hawk just don't seem to have the ruthlessness required to dominate PvP.

Which is, in part, why they seem to excel instead at GSF. GSF does work when a pilot takes a ruthless tack, but the community since its formation has pretty much instead focused on making it accessible to new players, conducting themselves with a spirit of fair play, and mostly pursuing team victory over personal achievement.

Plus, I have some theories about the association between an in-game heroic avatar that took time to 'get exactly right' with the player's personal self-image, and how seeing that self-avatar get killed over and over again and not being able to fight back in a meaningful way could be potentially traumatic...but that's for another thread.

Aaanyway, back on topic, my two cents on the matter is that the GSF community seems to have taken a very different path from the Ground PvP community*, and this may be a result. Regardless of faction, it's up to elder players of either side to put on the kid gloves if they want less-initiated players to explore their venue, find something they enjoy about it, and invest the effort into pursuing it.

Saving Republic PvP may mean you investing the effort to not crush the other team as hard as you know you probably could...and might also enjoy doing.

* - At the time of this posting, it has not escaped my notice that Impside GSF is taking some ugly hits from a more committed Republic player base. The same advice posited here also applies, in fact, should apply more to GSF players, precisely because of the more chivalrous mindset I used as an example in this very thread. Throttle back, guys. We want folks to stay in.
I had to read this post a few times to really try and digest what you're trying to say. After a while I sort of rested on a couple of things.

The first is that people don't want to be mean, and that people don't like people being mean to them. The second is that people especially don't like people being mean to them after they've spent a good deal of time getting their look just right before they head into a warzone. The third is that people should still want to win but should be nice about how they go about doing it.

I hate to sound trite, but are you being serious?

To the first point, PvP isn't about being mean. It's about Teamwork. It's working together to accomplish the objectives of the warzone in a manner which produces a favorable outcome for your team. You should understand this coming from GSF and frankly I can argue that there's more "mean people" in GSF than the ground game but that's probably a matter of opinion. That said, there's nothing ruthless about it. PvP, by it's very competitive nature, is prone to high emotions. Some people do indeed take losing way too seriously. Anyone who PvPs should expect one or two of those in each match. The difference is how you let it affect you. In the grand scheme of things though, the winning team is usually the one that works together the best. I've had my fair share of matches where my entire team was at the bottom of the barrel in kills and medals, and yet still won.

I'm not sure how to take the second point. I personally try to create a distinctive look for Triggle that people will recognize beyond the name and I know my wife is the same way with her toons. But that's purely for visual recognition and in reality it means little during the course of a battle. Mostly I just see names. And fire. Lots of fire. But you seem to insinuate that people are overtly attached to their toon, even to the point of it being a physical extension of themselves, and that putting themselves into harms way via PvP has catastrophic affects on them. Well, honestly, if that's the case then they probably have some things they need to work through in the real world and PvP in SWTOR should be the furthest thing from their mind.

As to the third point, when it comes to PvP you have to want to get better. The main driver behind this is seeing other people play who are better than you and wanting to meet or exceed them. I cut my teeth on Game Genie back on Sanctum of the Exalted. They were so far ahead of everyone else in terms of teamwork that it forced the Imperials to either get better or keep getting pounded. Back when Fallen Order was more than just Vind're and myself, we spent a lot of time banging our heads against the Game Genie wall and working hard to get better so that we could give them a run for their money. I want to say that before the Great Server Merge of 2012 that we were one of their tougher draws in a match, but I will say that playing against them made us better players.

Sometimes you have to suffer the blowout loss. It puts things into perspective and allows you the chance to correct mistakes. If you take a bad loss and just rage about it, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Becoming a better player is as much about learning from others as examining yourself to see where you need improvement. I still take cues from other people, I still want to learn, and I still want to get better.
Triggle - Sith Assassin - Ebon Hawk
My books - Spiral X | White Rock

Briggleworth's Avatar


Briggleworth
07.01.2014 , 10:56 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Nezumi View Post
I think it's totally within the means of this server's PvPers to save and significantly improve republic PvP. Frankly the biggest issue isn't premades, or too many imperials, though lopsided queuing can be an issue, it's a lack of competence or ability that has come to be expected from 55s and even 30-54.

I believe that if we make a concentrated effort to spread knowhow, and give advice as well as pub side pvping classes then the swell of republic scrubs will drop considerably. Replaced with capable pvpers.
I was away for the weekend celebrating Canadas birthday; got back into action for a bit last night. I had some great matches at 55 and then popped down to midbie for a bit. There were enough people queuinmidbies. Pubside that there were actually 2 full groups getting pops. I was queuing solo. And have no idea if there were any groups in there. I didn't recognize any names and only a couple of tags but it was really interesting. If I popped with 1 group, we absolutely pummeled the Imps we came up against and if I popped with the other group, we got obliterated. So I can agree with what Nezumi is saying here.

I will also echo What Triggle was saying. You are only going to get better at this by playing against people that are better than you. I do not believe in"taking it easy" on anyone. If on the receiving end of one of those disaster WZs, stay and take your beating and try to take something away from it. If you are on the team dishing it out, don't be satisfied with holding your 2 nodes. Go for the three cap every time.
APEX / GUERRILLA
Whiskey'Sour / Whiskey'Jax

FinalArbiter's Avatar


FinalArbiter
07.01.2014 , 12:33 PM | #26
I'm one of those republic scrubs and my pvp sucks because I'm new. Against imps we just get zerged on by their premades and can't do anything against their team comps and overall teamwork and strategy which admittedly trumps ours (though thats not saying much...we're mostly PUGs, the best on the imps side are in premades).

Also to the people saying "just face people better than you and you'll learn" you have to realize that you learn nothing from facing people who are higher level, better geared, premade, and facing a group of PUG republics. Sure you can learn your defensive CDs better and try to focus one target, but there is no way you are winning that match when you are outgeared, outleveled, outmatched, outcomped etc. Yes, in SWTOR, being outcomped IS a thing. A well-balanced team that covers each other's class and spec weaknesses will trump a team of 8 random classes+specs just thrown together every time.

You get better through close matches, not lopsided, uneven ones where you stand next to 0 chance, and can't really learn from your mistakes since the main reason you lost was being outgeared, outzerged, out-team-comped etc. We are talking about groups people that run balanced comps of juggs, powertechs, healers, and a marauder or two against people who are leveling up random classes on the pub side because they find them fun.

There is a point where your "PVP skill" only takes you so far and there is nothing you can do against these well-thought out comps run by premades who are probably talking on skype or vent.

I'm not complaining, just stating the truth. And I realize that I'm new and have a lot to improve upon in my PVP, but the fact is that there are far less PVPers on pubside who are willing to group up and zerg unranked WZs like the imps do. Being a great PVPer can only take you so far.

So if you're an experienced pvper, please give pubside a chance on this server, you will help the nubs on our side like me out a lot. Thanks!

Nezumi's Avatar


Nezumi
07.01.2014 , 12:51 PM | #27
The biggest piece of advice that needs to be spread is read and use ops chat. I'm certainly no stranger to getting belligerent when my team is sabotaging themselves by not paying attention, or any number of issues, buta lot of team organization problems can be resolved if people are willing and ready to use ops chat and listen to someone if they're trying to coordinate or call for help.

I think the lack of organized pvpers pub side is responsible for people learning bad habits like this.

Small steps can and will make a big difference, and it's important to try now more than ever now that ground PvP has its comm and credit boost, and double XP.
Empire Ebon Hawk
Vexos - Vedris - Dageus - Vaedrion - Seithe - Tyber - Alecxandyr
Republic
Dacarus - Korrenth - Garyth - McGrath - Merodrion

FinalArbiter's Avatar


FinalArbiter
07.01.2014 , 01:42 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nezumi View Post
The biggest piece of advice that needs to be spread is read and use ops chat. I'm certainly no stranger to getting belligerent when my team is sabotaging themselves by not paying attention, or any number of issues, buta lot of team organization problems can be resolved if people are willing and ready to use ops chat and listen to someone if they're trying to coordinate or call for help.

I think the lack of organized pvpers pub side is responsible for people learning bad habits like this.

Small steps can and will make a big difference, and it's important to try now more than ever now that ground PvP has its comm and credit boost, and double XP.
People read and follow ops chat in all levels of pvp in pubs. That is not the problem, nor was it ever the problem.

Nezumi's Avatar


Nezumi
07.01.2014 , 02:12 PM | #29
We must not be playing in the same matches then.

Far too often calls for help go unanswered, or plans get ignored and people suffer from lone wolf mentality.
Empire Ebon Hawk
Vexos - Vedris - Dageus - Vaedrion - Seithe - Tyber - Alecxandyr
Republic
Dacarus - Korrenth - Garyth - McGrath - Merodrion

QuinMantha's Avatar


QuinMantha
07.01.2014 , 03:22 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Moontayle View Post
I had to read this post a few times to really try and digest what you're trying to say. After a while I sort of rested on a couple of things.
Ahh, well, I'm sorry I wasn't more concise.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moontayle View Post
The first is that people don't want to be mean, and that people don't like people being mean to them. The second is that people especially don't like people being mean to them after they've spent a good deal of time getting their look just right before they head into a warzone. The third is that people should still want to win but should be nice about how they go about doing it.
That's about the basic run of it. I understand that PvP is supposed to be competitive, but I'm beginning to sense from the amount of 'Pubs no PvP why?!' threads that have been cropping up, that the current level of competitiveness is starting to take a toll on player influx. Nobody wants to walk into a meat grinder.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moontayle View Post
I hate to sound trite, but are you being serious?
I take no offense, but the answer is yes. I am presenting my opinion ingenuously. This is what I think. I can be wrong. I can be trippin'. I can be influenced by my current point of view.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moontayle View Post
I'm not sure how to take the second point. I personally try to create a distinctive look for Triggle that people will recognize beyond the name...
Ah-heh...see, this is why that sort of idea was for another thread. I recognize that some people don't invest a great deal personally into a character. Actually, probably a lot, even. Just...forget that whole bit, it's really tangential.

Quote: Originally Posted by Moontayle View Post
As to the third point, when it comes to PvP you have to want to get better. The main driver behind this is seeing other people play who are better than you and wanting to meet or exceed them...

Sometimes you have to suffer the blowout loss. It puts things into perspective and allows you the chance to correct mistakes. If you take a bad loss and just rage about it, then you're doing yourself a disservice. Becoming a better player is as much about learning from others as examining yourself to see where you need improvement. I still take cues from other people, I still want to learn, and I still want to get better.
Okay, now this is the point that I think really matters. At least on GSF, we have a differing opinion.

In a domination map, if at all possible, we on Ebon Hawk don't three-cap. A longer match means longer flight time, giving new or middling pilots more time to get better, and learn what works and what doesn't. Moreover, a longer match results in less new-player turnover (still happens, but there's a difference between a considerate victory and a noobstomp), a chance at more Requisition to allow for better upgrade purchases, more long-term interest, and maybe even a measure of respect for the local veterans. These same veterans will also willingly handicap themselves by selecting a less upgraded ship, a less powerful loadout, or something they're uncomfortable in, specifically in order to present a friendlier environment for newer players.

Blowouts, three-caps, and noobstomps, by their nature, intent and design, are jarring experiences. That can be necessary for a journeyman PvPer. However, the problem right now, if I understand things correctly, is that these jarring experiences have not served as instructional or inspirational instances, but instead as demoralizing ones. Players have dropped out rather than face it again, or worse, face it on a consistent basis.

Now, yes, we can rail all day about how it shows an uncommitted mindset on the part of those who are consistently demoralized by Ground PvP, and list, itemize and alphabetize the many faults and failings of those folks, but that won't solve the problem: What can WE, the established PvP crowd, do to keep folks in?

Of course, in this instance, 'we' means 'y'all', since, if I understand right, GSF isn't real PvP anyway...! I'm just here to try and provide a little outside perspective, and the ideas that I'm issuing from that perspective can be potentially wrong, I'm willing to accept that.
Ebon Hawkin' And Totally Rockin'

- Cmdr. Rhint Mantha, Jedi Knight, <Blue Squadron>
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