Okay, I sort of understand why you think free players should not be able to trade, but as a subscriber... you are hurting me. You are restricting ME.

How you may ask? Well, say an item I want drops and the free player rolls need, but it's something that is not for his class. After explaining how stats work, how Need vs. Greed works, and the usual courtesy of "Dont need for companions without asking first" the player is fully willing to hand over the item, as the game allows him to do for one hour as long as we stay in group. Great. Oh, but wait... he's a free player, I can't trade with him, even as a subscriber? So, is he a ninja? Did he make an honest mistake that he's willing to rectify? Did he know that he could ninja the item and being a free player would protect him by letting him play innocent? Doesn't matter. Either way, he can't give me the item. I am a subscriber... yet the free player restrictions are screwing ME.

So, please, even if it's just the same "Only within flashpoints/ops groups with items that dropped in that flashpoint/ops" restriction, allow subscribers to trade with free players at the very least!

EDIT: I tried to modify the title of the thread to better reflect that it should only apply to timer bound loot dropped within that flashpoint, and then it could be extended to allow like a free juggernaut who didn't understand their stats yet to trade the inquisitor robes they just accidentally needed on to the shadow.

Well for me its simple

No based soly on the fact that the more restrictions they lessen

The less likely they are to get any of those players to sub.

But honestly I'm 10000% in favor of subscriber only servers removing the F2P element completely from the equation.

As for rolling need

When I do PUG I am very quick to pay attention to rolling habits of PUG group and adjust accordingly

So if there is a F2P player Needing everything, I will need on Items I legitimately desire with out a second thought (don't much care about other items so will stay greed on those regardless)

So guess I don't see how the current rule set punishes you as a subscriber.

You are able to need as well, on Items you desire.

As for how it punishes me even if I need, the point is sometimes I have needed something that I shouldn't have. For just hypothetical example, say that a Strength Heavy Armor drops... I am playing my mercenary. I see "Heavy Armor" and I hit need. OOOPS. Well, I realize my mistake right after I win it, so I tell the Juggernaut that also needed it "Dude, sorry I misread what this was... here open trade, I will give it to you." and I do so. I've done similar things before. However, if a free player does this, and he wins the roll... then yes, I am screwed because he made a mistake and needed something he shouldn't have. If it was impossible to make a mistake and I could be 100% sure that every time someone needs they are a ninja and kick them, fine... but like I said, I know mistakes happen.

Also, many players (myself included) frown upon needing for companions (without asking first at least) so when it's obvious that is what the person is doing, and you ask them not to, and they apologize and are willing to give the item to you, the PLAYER that use it... it's very frustrating that they can't give it to me.

As for how it punishes me even if I need, the point is sometimes I have needed something that I shouldn't have. For just hypothetical example, say that a Strength Heavy Armor drops... I am playing my mercenary. I see "Heavy Armor" and I hit need. OOOPS. Well, I realize my mistake right after I win it, so I tell the Juggernaut that also needed it "Dude, sorry I misread what this was... here open trade, I will give it to you." and I do so. I've done similar things before. However, if a free player does this, and he wins the roll... then yes, I am screwed because he made a mistake and needed something he shouldn't have. If it was impossible to make a mistake and I could be 100% sure that every time someone needs they are a ninja and kick them, fine... but like I said, I know mistakes happen.

 

Also, many players (myself included) frown upon needing for companions (without asking first at least) so when it's obvious that is what the person is doing, and you ask them not to, and they apologize and are willing to give the item to you, the PLAYER that use it... it's very frustrating that they can't give it to me.

And since there is a limit on the number of times you can run a flashpoint, you'll never have another chance to get that piece of gear. It's not like you can run that FP over again.

Oh, wait...

As for how it punishes me even if I need, the point is sometimes I have needed something that I shouldn't have. For just hypothetical example, say that a Strength Heavy Armor drops... I am playing my mercenary. I see "Heavy Armor" and I hit need. OOOPS. Well, I realize my mistake right after I win it, so I tell the Juggernaut that also needed it "Dude, sorry I misread what this was... here open trade, I will give it to you." and I do so. I've done similar things before. However, if a free player does this, and he wins the roll... then yes, I am screwed because he made a mistake and needed something he shouldn't have. If it was impossible to make a mistake and I could be 100% sure that every time someone needs they are a ninja and kick them, fine... but like I said, I know mistakes happen.

 

Also, many players (myself included) frown upon needing for companions (without asking first at least) so when it's obvious that is what the person is doing, and you ask them not to, and they apologize and are willing to give the item to you, the PLAYER that use it... it's very frustrating that they can't give it to me.

and this example happens what?

1 time in every oh 300 flashpoints?

Cause if it happens more then that, its not the trading rules that need to be changed but you need to pay closer attention when rolling.

As for asking them

Its a PUG, 99% of time they will tell you sorry and do same thing over again to get the extra win and you will NEVER get those items from them anyways.

Pay attention to the rolls

just wait for group to roll

if they roll greed, you roll greed

If they roll need, you roll need

if they roll greed and you truely do need (not likely if your doing FPs as a 55 and been 55 more then a week) ASK IF THEY MIND IF YOU NEED

Sorry but really dont see a problem with F2P rules staying as is

Seems like your issues fixed by just paying a little closer attention when in a PUG

And if you do miss out on something

As stated, run the FP a few times more and item will usually drop again.

Okay, so because it rarely happens, it doesn't matter. Because it would not do any harm to fix the problem, it still shouldn't be fixed? I think your reasons to NOT do it are just as unconvincing as you think my reasons to do it are.

As for the number of times I can do a flashpoint/Ops/whatever... Well, yes there is a limit. Once a week for ops, technical limit of time able to play for flashpoints.

As much as I hate to be an elitist who hates F2P players, as it stands whenever this happens it annoys me enough that I usually AM an elitist for the rest of the day. Which, hey isnt really a problem I guess, right?

Okay, so because it rarely happens, it doesn't matter. Because it would not do any harm to fix the problem, it still shouldn't be fixed? I think your reasons to NOT do it are just as unconvincing as you think my reasons to do it are.

 

As for the number of times I can do a flashpoint/Ops/whatever... Well, yes there is a limit. Once a week for ops, technical limit of time able to play for flashpoints.

 

As much as I hate to be an elitist who hates F2P players, as it stands whenever this happens it annoys me enough that I usually AM an elitist for the rest of the day. Which, hey isnt really a problem I guess, right?

You can run that OP again next week, right?

Do you really run OP's with pugs?

Wouldn't the vast majority of players in a pug OP be either preferred (NOT the same as F2P) or subscriber?

You can always run whatever content it is again. IMO, changing the F2P restrictions, for the few times the situation you describe happens, is not worth the potential to greatly increase the ease with which credit sellers can ply their trade.

BTW, it seems to me that you don't hate being an elitist who hates F2P, you take great pleasure in it.

Mmm...

I agree in spirit with the OP, and perhaps a reasonable compromise is that any type of account can trade with a subscriber, yet not be able to trade with non-subscribers. This way, the handicap for not being a game payer is still present, but not in a form that injures the players that actually do pay to play. I am wondering, what about those poeple that buys lots of stuff at the cartel market, they could possibly end-up paying more a month than the average subscriber, should there not be a fair compensation for this, say buying a hypercrate upgrades for that month their account to subscriber?

Sue

You can run that OP again next week, right?

 

Do you really run OP's with pugs?

 

Wouldn't the vast majority of players in a pug OP be either preferred (NOT the same as F2P) or subscriber?

 

 

You can always run whatever content it is again. IMO, changing the F2P restrictions, for the few times the situation you describe happens, is not worth the potential to greatly increase the ease with which credit sellers can ply their trade.

 

BTW, it seems to me that you don't hate being an elitist who hates F2P, you take great pleasure in it.

Don't really care how it seems to you, but the only free players I hate are those that COMPLAIN INCESSANTLY about the restrictions.If they need some help, I'll help them. I answer questions, I do a lot for them because I don't hate them, just the ones I said I do in the last sentence. But if they don't like the restrictions, well then they can subscribe, or they can accept that they are getting something for free, there is no excuse to complain. I've been so broke I didn't have the money to eat before... I would sometimes have to go to a food kitchen. But I didn't say "This food is crap, I shouldn't have to eat it... I deserve better food!" and there are many free to play players that have this attitude about the game. I have a problem with them, yes. But the majority, the ones that I don't even know are free to play until I try to trade with them? Nope, I have no hate for them.

And yes, I can do the flashpoint or OPs next week, but so can an F2P player if they buy the FP or OPs pass on the market. So, with all the things that can drop, if an accident occurs, too bad so sad? So, then as I said, at that point I have two ways to look at it.

1. They honestly made a mistake, but being a free player they can't trade it. Forgive them.

2. They know they are a free player and cannot trade, so they are a ninja who uses the inability to trade as an excuse. They are ninja, kick them from the group and add them to my ignore list.

I am wanting to make it so that I don't have to assume #2 and kick/ignore a good, honest F2P player for a simple mistake they would be willing to rectify. How is this elitist or hating F2Ps?

Plus, again as long as it was only within FP/OPs with items dropped in that FP/OPs, I fail to see how it would be of any consequence to gold sellers. Don't allow the transfer of ANYTHING that didn't drop in that FP/OPs, not even a single credit. Then, it would not help gold sellers in any way, shape, or form.

Don't really care how it seems to you, but the only free players I hate are those that COMPLAIN INCESSANTLY about the restrictions.If they need some help, I'll help them. I answer questions, I do a lot for them because I don't hate them, just the ones I said I do in the last sentence. But if they don't like the restrictions, well then they can subscribe, or they can accept that they are getting something for free, there is no excuse to complain. I've been so broke I didn't have the money to eat before... I would sometimes have to go to a food kitchen. But I didn't say "This food is crap, I shouldn't have to eat it... I deserve better food!" and there are many free to play players that have this attitude about the game. I have a problem with them, yes. But the majority, the ones that I don't even know are free to play until I try to trade with them? Nope, I have no hate for them.

 

And yes, I can do the flashpoint or OPs next week, but so can an F2P player if they buy the FP or OPs pass on the market. So, with all the things that can drop, if an accident occurs, too bad so sad? So, then as I said, at that point I have two ways to look at it.

 

1. They honestly made a mistake, but being a free player they can't trade it. Forgive them.

2. They know they are a free player and cannot trade, so they are a ninja who uses the inability to trade as an excuse. They are ninja, kick them from the group and add them to my ignore list.

 

I am wanting to make it so that I don't have to assume #2 and kick/ignore a good, honest F2P player for a simple mistake they would be willing to rectify. How is this elitist or hating F2Ps?

 

Plus, again as long as it was only within FP/OPs with items dropped in that FP/OPs, I fail to see how it would be of any consequence to gold sellers. Don't allow the transfer of ANYTHING that didn't drop in that FP/OPs, not even a single credit. Then, it would not help gold sellers in any way, shape, or form.

Why would you kick/ignore a good honest F2P player who made a mistake???????

Is some random drop in a Flashpoint/op really that all mighty important to you????

Its an item, it can be gotten again 100 times over

Lets be honest here, your doing storymode ops if your PUGING so the items drops are NOT that good really and certainly nothing that cant be replaced fairly simply.

The thing I cant understand about your request is why these basic items that drop in FPs and OPS so almighty important to you?

I just came back 2 months ago after a 14 month absence and honestly doubt there is any drops I NEED (beyond rep and rare HM drop). So why do you NEED all these items? Are you rolling Need to strip and outfit alts (which is bad form) because I cant figure out how anyone thats ran any Ops or HM FPs over a few weeks needs these items as you are saying.

Pay attention to rolls and 99% of your issues are solved.

Cant help you on the 1% but I certainly dont freak out or kick people for the odd bad roll. Thats completely on you and your choice.

And yes, keeping the restriction to encourage more subs is worth the restriction staying in place.

PS: Seems like your getting quite upset despite you being the one that begged for responses.

Never ask a question if your not willing to hear the answer!

Why would you kick/ignore a good honest F2P player who made a mistake???????

 

Is some random drop in a Flashpoint/op really that all mighty important to you????

 

Its an item, it can be gotten again 100 times over

 

Lets be honest here, your doing storymode ops if your PUGING so the items drops are NOT that good really and certainly nothing that cant be replaced fairly simply.

 

The thing I cant understand about your request is why these basic items that drop in FPs and OPS so almighty important to you?

 

I just came back 2 months ago after a 14 month absence and honestly doubt there is any drops I NEED (beyond rep and rare HM drop). So why do you NEED all these items? Are you rolling Need to strip and outfit alts (which is bad form) because I cant figure out how anyone thats ran any Ops or HM FPs over a few weeks needs these items as you are saying.

 

Pay attention to rolls and 99% of your issues are solved.

Cant help you on the 1% but I certainly dont freak out or kick people for the odd bad roll. Thats completely on you and your choice.

 

And yes, keeping the restriction to encourage more subs is worth the restriction staying in place.

 

PS: Seems like your getting quite upset despite you being the one that begged for responses.

 

Never ask a question if your not willing to hear the answer!

My point is, how do I know they just made a mistake? I don't. I have to take their word for it. And I'm not getting upset, I just think that your main reason for not allowing free players to trade with subscribers (only in flashpoints with drops from that flashpoint) in any way helps gold farmers. It doesn't. Maybe I'm bad at discussing things, I don't know, but I'm not upset, I am continuing to discuss my thoughts.

Also, free players can buy OPs passes on the GTN. So, it's not JUST story mode PUGs that are potentially affected. If a player is trying to get gear from Story Mode so they can move up to the Hard Modes, then yes that gear very much has value and if some trooper (F2P or not) needs on a Strength drop, well... I'm glad you have time to do flashpoints/ops 100 times a week, most players don't.

Plus, I will say again that your main reason of gold farmers... tell me please how a free player being able to give an item to a subscriber within the flashpoint with the group would help gold farmers? Do you think that gold farmers that are subscribed will group up with free players to ninja items for them so much that it would really affect anything?

My point is, how do I know they just made a mistake? I don't. I have to take their word for it. And I'm not getting upset, I just think that your main reason for not allowing free players to trade with subscribers (only in flashpoints with drops from that flashpoint) in any way helps gold farmers. It doesn't. Maybe I'm bad at discussing things, I don't know, but I'm not upset, I am continuing to discuss my thoughts.

 

Also, free players can buy OPs passes on the GTN. So, it's not JUST story mode PUGs that are potentially affected. If a player is trying to get gear from Story Mode so they can move up to the Hard Modes, then yes that gear very much has value and if some trooper (F2P or not) needs on a Strength drop, well... I'm glad you have time to do flashpoints/ops 100 times a week, most players don't.

 

Plus, I will say again that your main reason of gold farmers... tell me please how a free player being able to give an item to a subscriber within the flashpoint with the group would help gold farmers? Do you think that gold farmers that are subscribed will group up with free players to ninja items for them so much that it would really affect anything?

Are a few virtual pixels worth getting bent out of shape over? Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so.

How do you know if it was an honest mistake? I guess you can never be sure. This is one of the reasons why people should NOT assume that every player knows your unwritten rules when it comes to loot. Communication at the start of an instance can curb these mistakes.

That said, I see no problem with giving the F2P player the benefit of the doubt. If a player rolls on an item and wins it and you do not feel they are entitled to those virtual pixels, despite the fact that those pixels would not even exist without that player's efforts, then explain it to them. If it was an honest "mistake", then they likely will not make that same "mistake" (in your eyes) again. If they do roll need on another set of virtual pixels to which you do not feel they are entitled, then kick them and add them to your ignore list. What do you have to lose, besides a few virtual pixels?

 

Plus, I will say again that your main reason of gold farmers... tell me please how a free player being able to give an item to a subscriber within the flashpoint with the group would help gold farmers? Do you think that gold farmers that are subscribed will group up with free players to ninja items for them so much that it would really affect anything?

Do you even read others responses????

I have never once mentioned Credit farmers in agreeing with the restrictions.

Sounds like you just want to argue cause you clearly haven't read any responses made to you.

As for not giving benefit of doubt, yeah that's on you again.

Sounds like 99.99999999% of your issues get fixed with you getting an attitude change and coming down off your grossly undeserved perch, that you have placed yourself on.

I'm far from a F2P fan or supporter but next to you I'm down right sociable and kind hearted in my approach.

Think you need to go back and actually read peoples responses cause I have no idea what you are going on about that you attribute to me.

Not sure about anyone else but I suspect (based completely on what you said here and how you claim to react and treat people in game when they make a mistake) it would be you getting kicked, not F2P people, from groups.

Do you even read others responses????

 

I have never once mentioned Credit farmers in agreeing with the restrictions.

 

Sounds like you just want to argue cause you clearly haven't read any responses made to you.

 

As for not giving benefit of doubt, yeah that's on you again.

 

Sounds like 99.99999999% of your issues get fixed with you getting an attitude change and coming down off your grossly undeserved perch, that you have placed yourself on.

 

I'm far from a F2P fan or supporter but next to you I'm down right sociable and kind hearted in my approach.

 

Think you need to go back and actually read peoples responses cause I have no idea what you are going on about that you attribute to me.

 

Not sure about anyone else but I suspect (based completely on what you said here and how you claim to react and treat people in game when they make a mistake) it would be you getting kicked, not F2P people, from groups.

Okay, so then if gold farmers isn't the reason then what would this change harm (and I want to apologize for attributing that to you, I am bad with names, I have a lot going on and got confused, so I again apologize for attributing the gold farmers comment to you )? And no, I usually do give F2P players the benefit of the doubt, actually far more than some others do. I've seen a player needing on every single drop through an entire flashpoint, then finally at the end he stops... then next flashpoint, hes' not doing it anymore, because he finally understands. This is because I can count the number of times I've inititated a kick on a ninja since launch on one hand (and the few times I have, it's always been after telling them if they don't understand common looting rules (which aren't just mine, nearly every player I play with follows them, even in PUGs... as I said, I'm usually not the one to SAY something unless it's getting out of hand) then please let us know and we can try to explain again, but if they continue to ninja then at that point, we will kick them. 9/10 that solves the problem without a kick), although if one pops up, I either vote yes, or abstain. Does not voting no make me a jerk? Maybe, but I don't think so. But, if the "only within flashpoints" rules were extended to all players (in fact, I might change my title an OP to that) then the only possible bad would be two free players conspiring to steal loot from subscribers, but considering subscribers can do that too, I don't see where anything is going to change.

As for incentive to subscribe, if the inability to correct a mistake is the deciding factor of someone subscribing or not... hmmm yeah I really don't see that being the deciding factor.

But hey, on a side note... You (or someone) pointed out there is a difference between free players and preferred, and while I know that, I don't know all the differences, as I've never been a free player, and have never played more than 5 minutes as preferred. Can Preferred trade? If not, maybe that's a slight "okay" but then at the same time, if the inability to trade AT ALL isn't enticing them to buy coins/subscribe, then I even more think this change will not mean anything to them.

Also, I will point out that the last time this was REALLY an issue, it wasn't even gear for me I was worried about. I was on my level 47 helping two players, at least one of which was free, gear up their toons with Black Talon stuff. So, when the free juggernaut who still didn't fully understand character stats needed on the inquisitor's gloves, why shouldn't he be able to say oops and give it to the shadow? By the end when the inquisitor robes dropped he let the shadow have them, he actually passed on the double-bladed lightsaber, didn't even greed, fully showing that he now understood.

Okay, so then if gold farmers isn't the reason then what would this change harm.

Ive answered that 3 different times why the restriction is good (and nothing to do with credit farmers) so ill not repeat myself again on the issue. Read previous responses for your answer

I understand where you are coming from, but the main reason they restrict trade on free accounts is they don't want them to become credit mules for credit sellers. This makes it pretty unlikely it will change.

Apparently you haven't read properly. This is only about FP drops, not credits.

The OP wants to be able to trade the drops from FPs with F2Pers during the 2 hours in which they are still tradeable between the players who were eligible for receiving this item, nothing more.

So why should trading FP drops affect credit sellers????

Ive answered that 3 different times why the restriction is good (and nothing to do with credit farmers) so ill not repeat myself again on the issue. Read previous responses for your answer

Your reasons seems to be because you can always do the OP next week, because what drops in OPs are crap anyway, and because allowing F2P to trade ONLY these items would be the one thing that would cause them to not subscribe.

So, the first reason: True, but why should any player, free or subscriber, get an item that has no value to their class OR any companions other than being vendor trash with a need roll when that's what greed is intended for? That's at best a mistaken roll and at worst a ninja. Either way, free or subscriber... the ability to correct the mistake would make it very clear mistake or ninja, so we could act accordingly on the first roll without having to pay careful close attention to every drop. I'd be just as quick to ignore a fellow subscriber if I thought he/she was using a known free player's inability to trade as a reason to ninja loot vs them.

Second reason: Just because you are well geared already doesn't mean everyone is, or that even all of our characters are. I have quite a few new 55's that I need to run SM OPs on to get the gear there before I can join a HM OPs without players going (justifiably so, to some extent) "omg noob go back to SM OPs" and kicking me) Plus, I am not just talking about OPs, I have always done flashpoints while leveling up to get the gear drops because I can't afford to keep all my companions outfitted with just planetary commendations. So, when I am on say a sentinel trying to get a chestpeice for her, the commando who doesn't understand stats thinks I need that to hold my assault cannon (and yes, I've heard that excuse even before the game went F2P) he says he understands, and sure enough doesn't ninja because all the rest of the drops are aim... so was he a ninja using a crazy lame excuse 'har har my assault cannon is heavy, i need strength har har" or did he seriously think strength mattered? My level 55 guildmaster recently (like two months ago) told me that a sniper should gear both aim and cunning... discussed it with him for about 5 minutes before I convinced him that no, he was doing it wrong... and I've known him since the server transfers, so I don't think he's stupid. I think he was looking at the anomaly that is HK-51 who can gear both and since he uses a sniper rifle and snipes, well then snipers are like him.

Third reason: I seriously doubt this change will make anyone on the fence about subscribing realize they don't need to anymore. If anything, I could see it if I was a free player and I bought weekly flashpoint/ops passes on the GTN, then saw this restriction allowing subscribers (or other free players) to screw me (only has to happen once to leave a sour taste in a new player's mouth), it wouldn't entice me to subscribe to prevent it, it would make me just quit. That's not what Bioware wants, they want them to subscribe.

Those are the reasons I got at least after careful re-reading of only your posts.

Now, that said, we seem to be arguing too much, I don't think I am going to change your mind, I know you aren't going to change mine, so at this point we should shake hands, agree to disagree, and let others voice opinions (or not) and I will try to be be more careful in the future about who I'm responding to (again, sorry for mis-attributing the credit farmers reason to you)

I'll just add my personal opinion,

I'm in favor of subscriber only servers

I'll just add my personal opinion,

 

I'm in favor of subscriber only servers

I only know of one game that did that, and the majority of players didn't bother, except an occasional "I need to get away for awhile" time. The subscriber only server was the LEAST populated server and the whole reason i quit was because I always felt like there was nobody there, plus I ran with a very very large community of players (which included a few well-known sci/fi fantasy authors... was quite fun playing with Mercedes Lackey and Jim Butcher especially), most of which were subscribers (which I know because the entire end game was subscriber only and there was no weekly passes like they have here, and I ran stuff with most of them all the time) and they didn't bother with the subscriber only server.

So, my opinion only, but I am NOT in favor of a subscriber only server because I feel that all that would do is take away a bunch of subscribers on the main servers, who would then cause complaints about how DEAD the servers are, and quit. Which would create more doom and gloom here on the forums about how the game is dying.

I dont see why F2P players shouldn't be able to trade bop items they need by mistake. It happens all the time in lowlevel FP's and even if i dont care much about lowlevel loot it's just silly that a F2P cant rectify an honest mistake.

About the subscriber servers. I just think it would create more problems than it would fix.

I believe that F2P players should be able to trade from let's say level 35 - 40 on.

Lower levels are not rfecommended because of possible grieving of Newbies.