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2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

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2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

namesaretough's Avatar


namesaretough
06.04.2014 , 07:58 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Hover over the debuff and read the tooltip. The stacks increase damage from Brontes, not from Kephess.
It increases damage taken, period
Smugglin

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KeyboardNinja
06.05.2014 , 12:34 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by namesaretough View Post
It increases damage taken, period
I stand corrected. You may be interested to know that, according to the script files, it can only reach 20 stacks. Not sure that information is useful to anyone…
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benjbear
06.05.2014 , 01:34 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The adrenal is much closer to 5% additive.
You're basically putting more strain on your healers so you don't have to tank swap. Sure it increases your quality of life, but you'd be hard pressed to call it a QoL increase for everyone. Also, I invite you to consider the following scenario (which can and will happen with your strategy, depending on your DPS): 8 stacks, Arcing Assault, orb ticking on you and Kephess dropping on your head. Even with two healers, you're probably not going to survive that combination.
.
That situation is just impossible whilst solo tanking brontes, for the reason being that you never get the orb whilst tanking Brontes (at least Ive never got it). Even if you did, at this moment you have to use force shroud at 8 stacks which completely negates the stacks and the assault.

Stressed_eel's Avatar


Stressed_eel
06.05.2014 , 02:37 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The scenario I outlined (8 to 12 stack Arc + orb ticks + Kephess) is roughly 84k damage spread over 4 seconds (with roughly 48k of that coming from Arcing alone). With Overcharge, you're talking about roughly 54k. Note that I'm including the AoE damage redux. 54k damage in 4 seconds is 13.5k HPS in burst. Two healers can probably do that, barely, but one categorically cannot. You can play some games with maximum health here, but further remember that you're going to have at least one Arcing Assault tick which stacks precisely on top of Dread Bomb and an orb tick, all within less than half a second, which is 22.1k damage through overcharge instantaneously.
In reality I never use the 8-12 stack stage as DPS in my guild is good enough to make that not required to solo tank safely, the point of it was to show how it was done, sort of as a multi purpose guide, the one I uploaded was a rotation designed for people with low dps whether it be people wanting to try NiM, saving burst for droid phase or if the person goes wrong they have margin for error, in the video I wasn't able to complete the rotation but I normally take 8 with OC then save the blackout for every 4 stack I take after besides a possible final one if dps if preparing for droids (as ill be using Force Cloak, blackout will be off cooldown for the 0-4 after using FS). With this It's less damage overall, using force shroud to resist all dmg (as well as grabbing an orb with FP and taunt if you choose), using blackout to reduce the dmg coming from 1-4, using force clock to stop her using Arching Assault thus only picking up one tick of it. so yes, you do take more dmg than needed if you choose to do 8-12 but besides that everything is reduced dmg. Then if we take into account that the tank on Kephess will never feel tingly and take 40% increased dmg. As someone has already addressed the Tank on Brontes will never get an orb so that damage is irrelevant. Dread Bomb going on you on the exact moment of you having 8-12 stacks is irrelevant, it doesn't coincide with Kephess jumping at all anyway, infact he would have already jumped and possibly be dead (like in my video). So yeah, grats on making an impossible scenario.

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
06.05.2014 , 03:38 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Enrage + Leap > Smash > Crushing + Retaliate + Reflect > Backhand > Scream > Ravage + Retaliate > Choke > Sunder > Push > …

If you're getting hit at all during that sequence, you should have enough rage to execute it. If not, then you should swap Choke, Backhand and Sunder such that Backhand becomes back-loaded.
Thanks.

A couple of things:
1) That rotation is dependent on having Enrage (45s CD) and Backhand (60s CD) available and all the other CDs have to line up for you to pull it off.

2) With (1) in mind, the only reliable time to use that rotation is at the start of the fight when you first pull the boss.

3) Saber Reflect is a too valuable defensive CD to use as a "mere" aggo multiplier.

4) For more aggro, you could swap Smash and Crushing Blow since Smash doesn't have an aggro-multiplier. Also I run a 36 / 10 / 0 for most boss fights (swapping Viscous Retaliation for Rule of Two on Grob'thok) as more accuracy and might is an overall DPS increase instead of 20% extra Smash damage.

So the rotation would be:
Enrage + Leap + Power Adrenal while in the air > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Smash > Backhand > Scream > Ravage + Retaliate > Choke > Sunder > Push > …


As you point out, the CDs on the juggernaut opener is much longer than the CDs of an assassin tank. I've underlined the important part here: "...juggernaut opener...". You can probably use that rotation once during a boss fight (or twice in some rare instances) and that's it, and forget about it if you are off-tanking. All the while an assassin tank can basically "spam" his high-aggro moves without a care in the world.

Joel_Eisenlipz's Avatar


Joel_Eisenlipz
06.05.2014 , 08:13 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
4) For more aggro, you could swap Smash and Crushing Blow since Smash doesn't have an aggro-multiplier.
It does, it's just not as much. You are forgetting the 30% threat increase for Smash (and Sweeping Slash) from Single Saber Mastery. Also, I would always rather apply the debuffs with Smash first, then use Crushing Blow after.
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cxten's Avatar


cxten
06.05.2014 , 09:22 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Actually it reflects ranged/force and Tech damage which is not an aoe. But some skills from bosses are not considered aoes even though it looks that way ( i.e. Grob'thok force Scream).
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Yeah, nothing in Grob is an AoE (which is exceptionally weird). And some things which are AoEs are still reflected (e.g. TfB Scream). Weird ability…
My favorite of these is the conal from Kephess (TFB --- haven't tried with the clones on Brontes, but it may work the same). If you stand *in front of* the person targeted, you reflect the damage and they don't get hit. Indeed weird.

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KeyboardNinja
06.05.2014 , 11:22 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
In reality I never use the 8-12 stack stage as DPS in my guild is good enough to make that not required to solo tank safely, the point of it was to show how it was done, sort of as a multi purpose guide, the one I uploaded was a rotation designed for people with low dps whether it be people wanting to try NiM, saving burst for droid phase or if the person goes wrong they have margin for error, in the video I wasn't able to complete the rotation but I normally take 8 with OC then save the blackout for every 4 stack I take after besides a possible final one if dps if preparing for droids (as ill be using Force Cloak, blackout will be off cooldown for the 0-4 after using FS). With this It's less damage overall, using force shroud to resist all dmg (as well as grabbing an orb with FP and taunt if you choose), using blackout to reduce the dmg coming from 1-4, using force clock to stop her using Arching Assault thus only picking up one tick of it. so yes, you do take more dmg than needed if you choose to do 8-12 but besides that everything is reduced dmg. Then if we take into account that the tank on Kephess will never feel tingly and take 40% increased dmg. As someone has already addressed the Tank on Brontes will never get an orb so that damage is irrelevant. Dread Bomb going on you on the exact moment of you having 8-12 stacks is irrelevant, it doesn't coincide with Kephess jumping at all anyway, infact he would have already jumped and possibly be dead (like in my video). So yeah, grats on making an impossible scenario.
The tank on brontes does get orbs. I've seen this, between my cotank and myself, maybe four or five times. As for Dread Bomb coinciding with Arcing Assault, that entirely depends on your DPS. Kephess jumps at 50% (though there's an animation and a rotation cycle, so he's often somewhat lower than that when he goes up). He spawns at timed intervals but only starting at 95% on Brontes, which means that if your DPS is delayed in getting onto the boss coming out of phase 2 (which happens sometimes if you have an unlucky final tentacle pair), Kephess will be at a different time than you're accustomed to. My cotank has been smashed by Kephess while getting Arcing Assaulted.

Ok, so you're backing away from the 12 stack thing… Even assuming you only go up to 8 stacks, this is still a net loss in terms of overall damage taken, and additionally it localizes that damage on a single person, making burst more of a concern. Algebra:

1.8x + 1y > 1.4x + 1.4y
0.4x > 0.4y
x > y

In other words, your strategy will produce strictly more healing required overall than a tank swap strategy, providing that Brontes does strictly more damage than Kephess (which she does). And this is ignoring the fact that the tank swap strategy keeps a 0 stack tank on Brontes and never tanks her with 4 stacks. In other words, you're actually comparing something like this:

1.8x + 1y > 1x + 1.4y
0.8x > 0.4y
2x > y

In other words, Kephess could do almost double the damage that Brontes does, and solo tanking up to 8 stacks would still be a strategy which produces higher requisite healing.

We're very off topic here. Honestly, I don't think either of us is going to convince the other.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
1) That rotation is dependent on having Enrage (45s CD) and Backhand (60s CD) available and all the other CDs have to line up for you to pull it off.
Yes. I in fact stated this explicitly.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
2) With (1) in mind, the only reliable time to use that rotation is at the start of the fight when you first pull the boss.
Not really, no. You certainly can't do it more than once per minute, but sometimes that's all that matters. For example, you could do this on all three of the tentacle pairs in TfB. Hint: don't use Backhand on cooldown. Outside the opener, it's really only useful as a stun.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
3) Saber Reflect is a too valuable defensive CD to use as a "mere" aggo multiplier.
Not really, no. Saber Reflect is a remarkably specialized defensive CD. Far, far worse than Shroud when you count up the number of places where it is usable. Also, there are very few bosses which have something that you absolutely need to reflect in the first 60 seconds of the fight.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
4) For more aggro, you could swap Smash and Crushing Blow since Smash doesn't have an aggro-multiplier. Also I run a 36 / 10 / 0 for most boss fights (swapping Viscous Retaliation for Rule of Two on Grob'thok) as more accuracy and might is an overall DPS increase instead of 20% extra Smash damage.
Smash does almost as much threat as Shock. It has a threat multiplier and a damage multiplier (which are considered multiplicatively). Getting Smash up front is extremely important for several reasons. First, accuracy debuff. Second, armor debuff (meaning everything that follows does more threat). Third, you get it out of the way early to ensure more Revenge stacks for Scream in the opener. Fourth, it does a fairly hefty amount of threat.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
Enrage + Leap + Power Adrenal while in the air > Crushing Blow + Retaliation > Smash > Backhand > Scream > Ravage + Retaliate > Choke > Sunder > Push > …
Wait…so you don't want to burn Saber Reflect, a 60 second cooldown, but you're willing to burn your adrenal, a 180 second cooldown? Remember the adrenal is more broadly applicable than Saber Reflect by far, and is thus a generally more useful defensive CD.

If you actually sit down and tally up the threat dealt by each ability, my opener is going to do more threat overall and will front-load it more and will cost less down the run (since Smash will be more separated from Scream).

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
As you point out, the CDs on the juggernaut opener is much longer than the CDs of an assassin tank. I've underlined the important part here: "...juggernaut opener...". You can probably use that rotation once during a boss fight (or twice in some rare instances) and that's it, and forget about it if you are off-tanking. All the while an assassin tank can basically "spam" his high-aggro moves without a care in the world.
No, an assassin tank cannot "spam" his high-agro moves without a care in the world. When an assassin is off-tanking, you're basically reduced to only maintaining mitigation, because there just isn't enough force to do much else. An assassin no more "spams" Wither and Shock than a Juggernaut spams Crushing Blow and Retaliate.

Also remember that the opener I gave for the assassin also relies on two long cooldowns: Pull (45s) and Recklessness (90s), though it is far less reliant than the Juggernaut opener (as I specifically said).

Can an assassin grab agro at arbitrary points in the fight more easily than a Juggernaut or Powertech? Yes, there's absolutely no question about that. Do they have more threat than a Juggernaut or Powertech given all cooldowns available? No; in fact they have quite a bit less. Do they have more sustained threat? No; it's exactly even.

All of this is to say that you cannot list "easy mode threat" as an advantage for assassins any more than you can list it for all of the tanks. They just have different advantages, that's all.
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Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

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Leafy_Bug
06.06.2014 , 09:39 AM | #29
In my opinion, this thread can be answered by the following : what will the developers do next? The best tanking class is always the one that glues well with ALPHA mechanics. Please, do not get me wrong, I am not saying these tools given by the developers to kill a boss are not doable with every tank, however, as long as BW designers opt to implement strategies that suit 'phasewalk, force pull, quick force speed direction changes, heavy area damage and internal resistance', better, the choice of 'best' tanking class is simple.

The holly grail, Brontes, showed that even without the hybrid spec, Shadows were the best tanks for the aforementioned reasons. The goodies at our disposal to deal with orbs coupled with that hybrid meant one thing : practice execution because it is impossible for her not to die. For DF NiM, the best tanking duo was Shadow and Shadow. The topic at hand relates to 2.8 and this is released next week. Without knowing the final damage ratios I cannot state which is the de facto tank for DP NiM, hence, I will not venture on any guess.

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ahzecklawd
07.23.2014 , 02:53 AM | #30
Assassin with a Hybrid build can definitely pull out great DPS and some good surv . The only 'useful' skill in T1 Darkness is Shelter , due to the H % increase (which can be pretty helpful in different situations.) > Shelter + Revi = Ownage . Any ways , I am using a 33/0/13 Build , focused on getting Shelter (Darkness T1) and Para + DF from Madness . Why D F ? Simple . DPS like jumping into a Group of ADD's before I have the chance to even get near enough to start rotating/building Threat . D F is L R + Non cast , so I am always 1 step ahead of the DPS and can build Threat from Range .

Now , it all depends on the Player . Some might agree , some might disagree , at the end it doesn't really matter , just play YOUR style/class .



Group's seem to pref having a Jug/Guard as the M Tank and a Sin/Shadow as a Off Tank .
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