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2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 03:39 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
Can you please tell me how a jugg can creating more "snap" threat than an assassin tank? I'm really curious about that.
Enrage + Leap > Smash > Crushing + Retaliate + Reflect > Backhand > Scream > Ravage + Retaliate > Choke > Sunder > Push > …

If you're getting hit at all during that sequence, you should have enough rage to execute it. If not, then you should swap Choke, Backhand and Sunder such that Backhand becomes back-loaded.

The above is quite a bit more threat early on than the corresponding assassin sequence:

Pull > Shock > Wither > Discharge > Thrash > Shock > Recklessness + Force Lightning > Wither > Shock

Pull is going to do more threat than Leap, by far. However, by the time we get to the end of GCD three, the Jugg should have completely leapfrogged the Assassin (remember, Reflect does the same threat as Pull). Backhand does enormously more threat than Discharge, as does Scream. Ravage does less threat than Force Lightning, but we're getting to it a whole GCD sooner and its damage is front-loaded. The assassin should be back on pace around the time they finish the auto-crit Wither, but from that point forward things are basically just equal.

So in other words, Assassins have a better GCD1 and GCD2, Juggernauts have a better GCD3 - GCD7, and things are pretty much dead even down the run. The important thing to notice is that the tools the Jugg needed to use in that opener have dramatically longer cooldowns than the tools the Assassin used, and also more of an impact on threat (e.g. Reflect and Backhand). Thus, Assassins are going to be a lot better at replicating this string at arbitrary points in the fight. Powertechs have the same problem, since Explosive Fuel and Shoulder Cannon are vital components of their burst opener, without which they fall behind Assassins.

The obvious caveat here is that if you had to swap around Backhand, Sunder and Choke, then your threat is going to fall off much faster and the Assassin is probably going to win the battle. Even if an assassin isn't going to get hit, they start with enough force to burst out at least through the first two cycles, which is an undeniable advantage.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Stressed_eel's Avatar


Stressed_eel
06.04.2014 , 03:46 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Overcharge is going to be up again by the time it's useful in the third phase (above-65% damage is a joke to heal).

Deflection is still RNG based. I'd rather take a guaranteed ~35% multiplicative reduction in damage taken over a ~80% chance to dodge completely, at least when we're talking about an attack which can two-shot me. Attuned hands hit like a truck if you don't shield it. Even in hybrid, you're talking about a roughly 27k hit with Blackout! Two of those in a row (particularly if the other tank is in similar straights) is going to make a completely unnecessary amount of work for your healers. Save your adrenal; it's a much longer cooldown.
Again with the added 10ish% that the adrenal will give to DR that is further reduced, from personal experience when I take dmg its no way near 27k per hit even with just blackout, again from personal experience it is extremely rare for deflection to fail, and even if it does, a one of dmg spike from it failing is still better than guaranteed hit every time from using an unnecessary CD such as OC which could be used if something goes horribly wrong and depending on how late in the 1st phase you use it could still be on CD in the following phase. If it really "did" create unnecessary work for healers, I wouldn't use it in the first place.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
But…why? L2threat on Kephess. Done. That phase is incredibly easy to tank, and not solo tanking it saves your Shroud for orbs and your Stealth for rezing during the clockwork phase.
Not shown in the video but you can combine FP along with FS when using it during the rotation to ease dmg aswell. Not a case of "L2Threat" tanked the Kephess side of the phase myself when Our other Sin tank was solo tanking, I know its not hard. As for steath rezing, seriously? if someone has died from hands, kephess or somehow from arching assault (even the interlude rofl) flat out shouldn't be happening. No one should be dead by this stage, everything up until this is a cake walk.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
On a related note, I do not consider "allowing yourself build to 12 stacks" to be an acceptable compromise. Arcing Assault at 8 stacks is no joke. Is it healable? Yes, but it's completely unnecessary damage.
At what cost? the tank who is on Kephess duty NEVER will have stacks thus taking less damage as a result along with no chance of the boss ever facing the raid from a late tank swap of some kind from human error. Sure, having 12 stacks is high but due to the use of OC it is still more than healable and healers are alert to it, its expected damage, controlled damage, no one else is taking serious damage anyway, its more of a quality of life tactic which still works perfectly fine.


Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
As for "endless moves" which can "practically be spammed":
  • Force Pull (45s CD)
  • Wither (9s CD)
  • Shock (6s CD)
  • Discharge (6s CD)
  • Force Lightning (effective 12s CD; and a channel)

Wither, Shock and Force Lightning cannot be used arbitrarily if you want to have any mitigation at all. So that leaves you with Discharge and a number of other abilities which are mostly proc'd and/or low threat.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to grab snap threat at arbitrary mechanically-enforced points more easily than the other tanks, because it is. However, assassins do not by any means have better sustained threat or damage, nor do they have better snap threat (assuming all cooldowns available) outside of the VERY first GCD.
Ok, you're not taking into account from the constant use of Maul/Assassinate/Thrash to proc an auto crit shock. Maul and Assassinate may not have the high threat multiplier other moves have but are still 2 very hard hitting moves especially if they crit boosting your dps. Thrash is the weak link here but will also proc your maul if shock isn't proced already and then maul can be used as a result providing rng favours you an extra chance to proc shock (same goes for assassinate with maul/shock proc chance) of course this is all rng based but considering the amount of this going on in between wither/discharge/shock/FL etc. So in conjunction with all of this, yes i was metaphorically speaking with endless moves/spammed because it feels like it when done right, even if you are unlucky with procs there is still more than enough going on to keep you mashing.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 03:58 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Again with the added 10ish% that the adrenal will give to DR that is further reduced, from personal experience when I take dmg its no way near 27k per hit even with just blackout, again from personal experience it is extremely rare for deflection to fail, and even if it does, a one of dmg spike from it failing is still better than guaranteed hit every time from using an unnecessary CD such as OC which could be used if something goes horribly wrong and depending on how late in the 1st phase you use it could still be on CD in the following phase. If it really "did" create unnecessary work for healers, I wouldn't use it in the first place.
The adrenal is much closer to 5% additive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Not shown in the video but you can combine FP along with FS when using it during the rotation to ease dmg aswell. Not a case of "L2Threat" tanked the Kephess side of the phase myself when Our other Sin tank was solo tanking, I know its not hard. As for steath rezing, seriously? if someone has died from hands, kephess or somehow from arching assault (even the interlude rofl) flat out shouldn't be happening. No one should be dead by this stage, everything up until this is a cake walk.
Progression is progression. You create margins so you can absorb mistakes so you can see more of the fight. I am in no way going to agree that a strategy which thins margins, removes options and puts more strain on the healers is better by any standard.

Also, none of Brontes's attacks are melee-limited, so sprinting away doesn't help you.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
At what cost? the tank who is on Kephess duty NEVER will have stacks thus taking less damage as a result along with no chance of the boss ever facing the raid from a late tank swap of some kind from human error. Sure, having 12 stacks is high but due to the use of OC it is still more than healable and healers are alert to it, its expected damage, controlled damage, no one else is taking serious damage anyway, its more of a quality of life tactic which still works perfectly fine.
Hover over the debuff and read the tooltip. The stacks increase damage from Brontes, not from Kephess. You're dramatically increasing the healing output required in that phase because you're dramatically increasing the damage taken in that phase, for no reason other than that you don't want to run back and forth with Kephess. When I tank this fight, neither my cotank or I ever have Brontes with stacks for more than a second or two. Facing the raid is never a danger because we (my cotank and I) know the timing, as all tanks should in that phase.

You're basically putting more strain on your healers so you don't have to tank swap. Sure it increases your quality of life, but you'd be hard pressed to call it a QoL increase for everyone. Also, I invite you to consider the following scenario (which can and will happen with your strategy, depending on your DPS): 8 stacks, Arcing Assault, orb ticking on you and Kephess dropping on your head. Even with two healers, you're probably not going to survive that combination.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Ok, you're not taking into account from the constant use of Maul/Assassinate/Thrash to proc an auto crit shock.
Assassinate is sub-30% only and has a similar cooldown. Not spammable. Maul is used on average once every 7 seconds, since it gets delayed enormously by Shock, Wither and Force Lightning. Thrash barely tickles.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Maul and Assassinate may not have the high threat multiplier other moves have but are still 2 very hard hitting moves especially if they crit boosting your dps.
Assassinate yes, is very hard hitting. Mine can crit for almost 6k. Maul…not so much. Maul is basically just a 25% better version of Thrash. In terms of threat, really not that impressive.

Auto-crit Shock is awesome, and it does allow you to use Shock slightly more often, but if you look at the math (or logs, if you prefer), you'll find that the CD reduction actually has very, very little impact on the frequency of use. In practice, you're using Shock roughly once every 5.7 seconds, which is only 0.3 seconds less than the natural CD.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
even if you are unlucky with procs there is still more than enough going on to keep you mashing.
Of course, but ultimately the only buttons you can reliably mash are Thrash and Saber Strike. You have a lot of other options, which is nice, and your basic attack is going to "build" more resource than a Jugg's basic attack, relatively speaking. But that doesn't mean that the sustained threat is any better or worse.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Hellprawn's Avatar


Hellprawn
06.04.2014 , 04:22 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
The adrenal is much closer to 5% additive.



Progression is progression. You create margins so you can absorb mistakes so you can see more of the fight. I am in no way going to agree that a strategy which thins margins, removes options and puts more strain on the healers is better by any standard.

Also, none of Brontes's attacks are melee-limited, so sprinting away doesn't help you.



Hover over the debuff and read the tooltip. The stacks increase damage from Brontes, not from Kephess. You're dramatically increasing the healing output required in that phase because you're dramatically increasing the damage taken in that phase, for no reason other than that you don't want to run back and forth with Kephess. When I tank this fight, neither my cotank or I ever have Brontes with stacks for more than a second or two. Facing the raid is never a danger because we (my cotank and I) know the timing, as all tanks should in that phase.

You're basically putting more strain on your healers so you don't have to tank swap. Sure it increases your quality of life, but you'd be hard pressed to call it a QoL increase for everyone. Also, I invite you to consider the following scenario (which can and will happen with your strategy, depending on your DPS): 8 stacks, Arcing Assault, orb ticking on you and Kephess dropping on your head. Even with two healers, you're probably not going to survive that combination.

Uhm sorry to burst your bubble here m8, my sin tank does just that and i solo heal that phase with the following lightning phase aswell? There is very little healing required there save that you know what to expect and when. My co-healer is off dps'ing there lol the only straining point on healers is after your 6 finger phase, thats it lol

So as for ''margins'' if you have people consistently dying up to that point then you may just want to re-consider your team, as you have a few wrinkles that need ironing out.

I also recall something about keeping your stealth for stealth rezzing? I'm assuming you are running with 2 mercs? because if you have op healers thats their duty and not yours, if you are running with 2 sorc healers then you only have yourself to blame for that.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
06.04.2014 , 04:50 PM | #15
Quote:
Can you please tell me how a jugg can creating more "snap" threat than an assassin tank? I'm really curious about that.
Saber Reflect : 9k-12k tps

Something which haven't been mentioned here is enraged defense. Used wisely it heals you for about 40k. In the fight against Brontes it can be used twice, i often use it at the droid phase ( to give the healers time to dps) and ofc in the last phase after tentacle 2 has been triggered and i am using taunts on the boss.

Furthermore the dtps difference between a sin tank and a jugger tank is not that big at the brontes fight. I take about 1200dtps while the sin tank takes 1100dtps. Ofc there is much random going on at the fight so there is no real comparison possible as we both have different tasks.

One thing to remind is that the assasin hybrid spec will most likely to be nerfed within the next patches as BW/EA already stated that they #1 dont want hybrid specs #2 dont want overpowered builds. For Bestia Nm for example the difference between a juggernaut tank and a sin tank are pretty big. If you let a sin tank collect all the mobs he gets about 3.5k dtps, if you let a juggernaut do it he gets about 4.2k dtps. This however only occurs because it seems that those mobs kinda ignore defstats ( my parsec showed me that i dodged 14% and shielded 12% of all attacks while wearing heavy defensive gear abt 1300 defense 1100shield and 400absorb). This boss fight however shows the biggest difference between sin hybrid and juggernaut. Other bosses do less dps and therefore the difference is also smaller. Still Sin hybrid spec is the best tanking spec atm for certain bosses. It might be a nuisance for some ppl ( hybrid specs shouldnt perform better than full specs) but why not use it for a quicker progression.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 05:00 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Hellprawn View Post
Uhm sorry to burst your bubble here m8, my sin tank does just that and i solo heal that phase with the following lightning phase aswell? There is very little healing required there save that you know what to expect and when. My co-healer is off dps'ing there lol the only straining point on healers is after your 6 finger phase, thats it lol
Logs or it didn't happen. Also, that's a lot of "lol"…

The scenario I outlined (8 to 12 stack Arc + orb ticks + Kephess) is roughly 84k damage spread over 4 seconds (with roughly 48k of that coming from Arcing alone). With Overcharge, you're talking about roughly 54k. Note that I'm including the AoE damage redux. 54k damage in 4 seconds is 13.5k HPS in burst. Two healers can probably do that, barely, but one categorically cannot. You can play some games with maximum health here, but further remember that you're going to have at least one Arcing Assault tick which stacks precisely on top of Dread Bomb and an orb tick, all within less than half a second, which is 22.1k damage through overcharge instantaneously.

This is certainly not a normal occurrence. Most pulls you'll never see anything remotely this bad. But it does happen unless your DPS hold off on Kephess just to be safe during the interlude of 8 stacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hellprawn View Post
So as for ''margins'' if you have people consistently dying up to that point then you may just want to re-consider your team, as you have a few wrinkles that need ironing out.
If people were consistently dying, then my stealth rez clearly wouldn't be enough to salvage things, would it? 15 minute cooldown. Insults benefit no one.

Let me spell this out for you: there is no team, ever, in any game, which goes into every complex fight and smoothly glides into a one-shot on their first try. Teams that claim such feats are lying. Mistakes happen. People die. Mechanics are unknown. The better your group can recover from those issues and move on, the more of the fight you can see each time.

Not everyone who reads these forums is farming Brontes. For those who are still progressing on the fight, strategies which offer better margins and lower strain are categorically superior. No one cares what strategy allows you to AFK the most after you have the boss on farm.

Quote: Originally Posted by Hellprawn View Post
I also recall something about keeping your stealth for stealth rezzing? I'm assuming you are running with 2 mercs? because if you have op healers thats their duty and not yours, if you are running with 2 sorc healers then you only have yourself to blame for that.
Nice healer prejudice…

We have a scoundrel healer. I still prefer to do the stealth rezing when I can because there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't. First off, it allows the healer to keep healing, which means we don't need to worry about absorbing damage carefully, blowing a slinger shield, etc. Second, there are numerous points in current content where the tanks just aren't doing anything. This is especially true for Brontes.

Stealth rezing is a big part of the assassin tank utility suite. If you're ignoring it, you're just not doing as much for your group as you could. Now that doesn't mean that you never use stealth outside of a rez. However, if you are faced with a choice between using stealth to cheese a mechanic that can more easily be handled correctly, or have your stealth up during a phase when it could be useful for other purposes, I'm going to pick the latter every time.

Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Saber Reflect : 9k-12k tps
Actually, it's only 8.5k, same as Force Pull, unless you're lucky and have a ranged/tech boss with little or no AoE attacks, in which case your number is absolutely accurate.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
06.04.2014 , 05:15 PM | #17
Actually it reflects ranged/force and Tech damage which is not an aoe. But some skills from bosses are not considered aoes even though it looks that way ( i.e. Grob'thok force Scream).
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 05:23 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Actually it reflects ranged/force and Tech damage which is not an aoe. But some skills from bosses are not considered aoes even though it looks that way ( i.e. Grob'thok force Scream).
Yeah, nothing in Grob is an AoE (which is exceptionally weird). And some things which are AoEs are still reflected (e.g. TfB Scream). Weird ability…
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

jono_shadow's Avatar


jono_shadow
06.04.2014 , 05:26 PM | #19
think ill add my side to this.
First off, im in the Heresy like a lot of the other people that have posted in this tread. (either dps or healing)

while this may have move away from the question in hand, just wanted to add another view to this.

as i say ive dps and healed DF nim (1-4, last boss not killed yet due to internal issues so nothing that cant be cleared) as a healing(operative) in brontes nim having a sin tank solo tank brontes isnt an issues, as one of my guides mentions me, the other healer was off dpsing, that was me, i think
first phase, only need 1 healer to heal the group, i can just keep probes & hots on tanks and dps that have orb and just dps the fingers. best try was 1300 dps during that phase while still keeping the raid alive, mostly down to the other healer, but raid totat ehps was less than 3k, easy for 1 healer. no1 should die

phase 2/ transition/fingers what ever you want to call it, yes people shouldnt die here(we have a guild rank for people that die during that, lol)

phase 2/3 / brontes - brontes 100%-50% again, this can be almost solo healed, just keep probes on the tanks for first 35%, then switch from dps to heals for 65%-50% i can maintain between 1.5k - 2k ehps while still doing 400-600 dps, not much but every little helps, other can keep he raid up without issues, this is with a sin solo tanking brontes. boss never faced the raid, only issues is if same person gets more than 1 orb, but ( this is only as a sniper, leg shot the orb till either the dps can take it, or a tank that is on kephess can take the orb) again, no1 should die. mistakes do happen, but having an op healer in the group help, every1 declicks heals or healing just w8s for them to go off, then stealth and res, job done. no1 should die . mistakes/rng does happen, so not 100% of the time.

lighting phase - again, just keep probes on tanks and me and other healer, EP/BS/Shiv/auto the droids, once the first 3/4 droids are down, just go back to probing every1 up, only reason to do this is if the dps is more set for higher overal dps and less so on burst. if people die, its almost a 100% wipe. no way in hell can healers heal though stupidity.

6 finger phase - back to full time healing no1 dies today

last phase - full time healing/ with as much damage during less intensive healing times

as for more strain on the healers, the only part that is an issues is the last few % where, for us, its still down to the RNG gods.

this post is in no way mean to insult or anything like that, its just to say that having a sin tank solo phases doesnt add strain to the healers

jono_shadow's Avatar


jono_shadow
06.04.2014 , 05:45 PM | #20
P.S. going back to the question asked.

All tanks can be taken into nim(not sure bout dp nim yet) but when im healing, i would have to give it to assassin + juggernaunt combo

as a dps, its almost the same answer, treat gereration by all 3 classes are high enough to keep the bosses on them instead of the dps, even when they are pulling 4k dps. as i dont play tank at high lvl pve content, ill leave that to the expects, but somthing that wasnt memtioned in past post(at the time of writing this) is when to include taunts.

DF nim
1st boss - tank switch, but can use aoe+single taunt on first few just to push over the dps
2nd boss - taunt on fist pump
3rd boss - tank switch every 15 secs i think
4th boss - tank switch again
5th boss - if you have sin tank on brontes during 100-50 , they can chain taunt as much as they want, upto next phase, incase of orb plus droids

so yea, while i have a PT tank that has cleared DF/DP HM, ill still say sin + jugg is best combo - however - i will say that is is more important to have a good player, not a good class. a good player can make PT + jugg work quite well.

given the 2 i would say are better, i would also say, pick which you like to play more, and gear that 1. if you want to switch l8er on, your part of the way there with the enchancements, just switch them over in legacy gear