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2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's

Letsjet's Avatar


Letsjet
05.31.2014 , 02:46 PM | #1
2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's :

June 15 is fast approaching. There was an interesting thread necro-ed from 2012.

As of now, and as I have 1 tank in setted 162's and two tanks in 156's and need to decide on one to get a setted 180 at least, what do you healers and tanks think as of the present and near future state of the state?
"I see you have constructed a new light saber. Your skills are complete. Indeed you are powerful as the Emperor has foreseen."

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
05.31.2014 , 04:36 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Letsjet View Post
2.8 - Best tanking class fit for HM and NiM 8's and 16's :

June 15 is fast approaching. There was an interesting thread necro-ed from 2012.

As of now, and as I have 1 tank in setted 162's and two tanks in 156's and need to decide on one to get a setted 180 at least, what do you healers and tanks think as of the present and near future state of the state?
Pick the one you like better, as you will be better with it. All 3 tanks are NiM viable
Kwerty, Level 65 Vanguard/Powertech on The Harbinger

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4.0 Guides: Advanced Prototype | Pyrotech

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
06.01.2014 , 01:43 AM | #3
Assasin tank because of hybrid spec (30% less aoe dmg) + phase walk.
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Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
06.01.2014 , 09:18 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Assasin tank because of hybrid spec (30% less aoe dmg) + phase walk.

FYI: phasewalk in the hybrid spec is useless.

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
06.04.2014 , 09:06 AM | #5
Yes, all tanks are NiM viable - some are just more viable than others.

If I had to pick, I'd definitely pick assassin tanks (especially since they get a DPS increase). With 1 assassin tank you can basically cheese a lot of the mechanics in NiM.

Some of the things you can do (I posted this in the other thread):
- Easy as hell to keep aggro with high DPS.
- Go hybrid with 30 % (?) AOE damage reduction (very useful in certain fights, ie Brontes).
- Resists vs. exploding adds in Draxus
- Tanking 2 Dismantlers at the same (no need to swap after knockback)
- Tanking 2 Hands in the Brontes fight after they have attuned.
- Single tanking Brontes (no need to tank swap on Brontes)
- Exiting combat to change gear.

From the looks of things I think juggernaut + assassin tanks are going to be a great combo.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 10:25 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
- Easy as hell to keep aggro with high DPS.
I think this is a bit of a myth. There was a thread a while back where the various tanks were comparing DPS parses on HM Nefra. Assassins did come out in the lead, but only by a tiny bit. My best parse was something like a 1530, while the best guardian parse was a 1510 or something like that. Really, really close.

So in other words, if you're good at the class, it doesn't matter which tank you're using.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
- Resists vs. exploding adds in Draxus
I can't wait for 2.8…

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
- Tanking 2 Hands in the Brontes fight after they have attuned.
Check your logs. The hands in the first phase (and no other!) use melee attacks. In other words, if you get slammed by an attuned hand, Shroud does exactly nothing for you. Overcharge is pretty boss there though.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
- Single tanking Brontes (no need to tank swap on Brontes)
Doesn't really work in nightmare mode unless you're willing to allow the last Arcing Assault to put you up to 8 stacks. Which is something that is totally feasible if your healers are ready for it, but still. It's not like in HM where you can solo tank it and basically never have any stacks.

Quote: Originally Posted by HBCentaurion View Post
From the looks of things I think juggernaut + assassin tanks are going to be a great combo.
I think they always have been. The problem I see with Jugg is Tyrans. One of the harder fights in NiM DP, and Juggs take an order of magnitude more damage than either of the other tanks. Also, if you want to kite the adds in Bestia, you basically need to make your Jugg the main tank. Not strictly speaking a problem, but something to be aware of. Even with those objections, I still think Jugg/Sin is pretty boss. :-)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Mr_Fuzzle's Avatar


Mr_Fuzzle
06.04.2014 , 12:30 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I think this is a bit of a myth. There was a thread a while back where the various tanks were comparing DPS parses on HM Nefra. Assassins did come out in the lead, but only by a tiny bit. My best parse was something like a 1530, while the best guardian parse was a 1510 or something like that. Really, really close.

So in other words, if you're good at the class, it doesn't matter which tank you're using.

I can't wait for 2.8…

Check your logs. The hands in the first phase (and no other!) use melee attacks. In other words, if you get slammed by an attuned hand, Shroud does exactly nothing for you. Overcharge is pretty boss there though.

Doesn't really work in nightmare mode unless you're willing to allow the last Arcing Assault to put you up to 8 stacks. Which is something that is totally feasible if your healers are ready for it, but still. It's not like in HM where you can solo tank it and basically never have any stacks.

I think they always have been. The problem I see with Jugg is Tyrans. One of the harder fights in NiM DP, and Juggs take an order of magnitude more damage than either of the other tanks. Also, if you want to kite the adds in Bestia, you basically need to make your Jugg the main tank. Not strictly speaking a problem, but something to be aware of. Even with those objections, I still think Jugg/Sin is pretty boss. :-)
To be fair, Nefra heavily increases Guardian tank DPS since they'll get many more Riposte procs being as the entire fight is defendable barring the DoT and droids. Shadows overall contribute more consistent dps than Guardians for current fights due not being entirely reliant on defending attacks to increase DPS. Guardians can be competitive in terms of tank dps on Nefra, Draxus, Calphayus, Grob'thok (particularly with the damn midgets) and Corruptor Zero if allowed to tank the ranged adds (yay Saber Reflect).

To add to your point, if the DPS screw up and a tank needs to pick up both hands, Guardians can pop Saber Ward and do the same.

Guardians most definitely cannot solo tank, no qualms there.

Order of magnitude? So they're in the range of 10,000 DTPS? I know you were exaggerating but come on...their reliance on defense and weak shield chance compared to the other tanks makes them take a bit more damage but most certainly nothing out of the range of healing through. Also, kiting on a Guardian sucks unless you have some convenient raid members to leap to.

All that being said, I definitely think having a Shadow/Guardian pairing with them taking main/off tank roles for different fights is one of the strongest pairings in the game.

Stressed_eel's Avatar


Stressed_eel
06.04.2014 , 02:45 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Check your logs. The hands in the first phase (and no other!) use melee attacks. In other words, if you get slammed by an attuned hand, Shroud does exactly nothing for you. Overcharge is pretty boss there though.
No need to use OC there its a complete waste of a CD which could be used for Brontes or Clones due to not getting the full use out of it in between it being pushed, hand not being up for long etc., forgetting about deflection? perfect for the attuned. running hybrid you can also ram a Exotech adrenal in there along with a Blackout making the Attuned damage non existent.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Doesn't really work in nightmare mode unless you're willing to allow the last Arcing Assault to put you up to 8 stacks. Which is something that is totally feasible if your healers are ready for it, but still. It's not like in HM where you can solo tank it and basically never have any stacks.
Ok as a Sin tank running this method since day one of 2.4 its pathetically easy to do on NiM, infact here's a video to prove it. Link

Also with the dps/threat "Myth" thats your personal push on the class, there are bound to be people out there who can push considerably higher. Sins have endless moves which can practically be spammed due to such short CD along with a strong opener for fast threat building, it's been said for a reason because it's true.

So like you said, as a Sin tank
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
I can't wait for 2.8…

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
06.04.2014 , 02:45 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
To be fair, Nefra heavily increases Guardian tank DPS since they'll get many more Riposte procs being as the entire fight is defendable barring the DoT and droids. Shadows overall contribute more consistent dps than Guardians for current fights due not being entirely reliant on defending attacks to increase DPS. Guardians can be competitive in terms of tank dps on Nefra, Draxus, Calphayus, Grob'thok (particularly with the damn midgets) and Corruptor Zero if allowed to tank the ranged adds (yay Saber Reflect).
Remember that almost 40% of a shadow's resource intake comes from defending and shielding. Try parsing as a shadow on the training dummy sometime. You get to use Shadow Strike exactly…once every 65 seconds. And never in the execute phase. Double Strike is used insanely sparingly (part of the reason why SS isn't usable).

Guardians are certainly bad when they can't take damage, but I'm really not sure I would classify them as more or less reliant on incoming damage than Shadows.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
Guardians most definitely cannot solo tank, no qualms there.
True. In general, I prefer not to solo tank Brontes in any case. It's a nice trick to have in your back pocket for when something goes wrong, but honestly it's just not needed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
Order of magnitude? So they're in the range of 10,000 DTPS? I know you were exaggerating but come on...their reliance on defense and weak shield chance compared to the other tanks makes them take a bit more damage but most certainly nothing out of the range of healing through. Also, kiting on a Guardian sucks unless you have some convenient raid members to leap to.
I'm definitely exaggerating with the "order of magnitude" claim. I should look at what it is exactly in terms of percentages. Probably 7-10%, which is still very noticeable, but not an order of magnitude.

Kiting on a Guardian is the worst thing ever, even with someone to leap to. Grob'thok is basically the worst boss for Guardians, by far. Unlike Shadows and Vanguards, who can successfully kite the adds without ever taking any damage at all, Guardians are almost forced to get in melee range at least once.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mr_Fuzzle View Post
All that being said, I definitely think having a Shadow/Guardian pairing with them taking main/off tank roles for different fights is one of the strongest pairings in the game.
Agreed. I mean, I love my Vanguard cotank to death, and Riot Gas is amazing, but Guardians have always had a special place in my heart.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
No need to use OC there its a complete waste of a CD which could be used for Brontes or Clones due to not getting the full use out of it in between it being pushed, hand not being up for long etc., forgetting about deflection? perfect for the attuned. running hybrid you can also ram a Exotech adrenal in there along with a Blackout making the Attuned damage non existent.
Overcharge is going to be up again by the time it's useful in the third phase (above-65% damage is a joke to heal).

Deflection is still RNG based. I'd rather take a guaranteed ~35% multiplicative reduction in damage taken over a ~80% chance to dodge completely, at least when we're talking about an attack which can two-shot me. Attuned hands hit like a truck if you don't shield it. Even in hybrid, you're talking about a roughly 27k hit with Blackout! Two of those in a row (particularly if the other tank is in similar straights) is going to make a completely unnecessary amount of work for your healers. Save your adrenal; it's a much longer cooldown.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Ok as a Sin tank running this method since day one of 2.4 its pathetically easy to do on NiM, infact here's a video to prove it. Link
But…why? L2threat on Kephess. Done. That phase is incredibly easy to tank, and not solo tanking it saves your Shroud for orbs and your Stealth for rezing during the clockwork phase.

On a related note, I do not consider "allowing yourself build to 12 stacks" to be an acceptable compromise. Arcing Assault at 8 stacks is no joke. Is it healable? Yes, but it's completely unnecessary damage.

Quote: Originally Posted by Stressed_eel View Post
Also with the dps/threat "Myth" thats your personal push on the class, there are bound to be people out there who can push considerably higher. Sins have endless moves which can practically be spammed due to such short CD along with a strong opener for fast threat building, it's been said for a reason because it's true.
Considering the traffic that the "how much DPS can you do on Nefra in 180s?" subthread got, and the tanks who were involved in that discussion, I'm pretty confident in saying that 1550 is about the cap for a 180 geared shadow tank. Most logs I see are substantially below that (I've gotten almost 1600 with 186s on NiM Nefra, which is a longer fight and thus generally lower DPS, but that's 186 gear). If you have a log which is higher than 1550 on HM Nefra in 180s, full tank gear and stim with no DPS adrenals, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, you're just conjecturing.

In point of fact, the assassin opener is surprisingly awful until you hit your first Force Lightning, it just times out really nicely with taunts. A guardian can build a lot more threat much faster if they need to. Vanguards as well. It's just that Vanguards and Guardians need to rely on cooldowns to do it, while Shadows can build that much snap threat at basically any point in the fight.

As for "endless moves" which can "practically be spammed":
  • Force Pull (45s CD)
  • Wither (9s CD)
  • Shock (6s CD)
  • Discharge (6s CD)
  • Force Lightning (effective 12s CD; and a channel)

Wither, Shock and Force Lightning cannot be used arbitrarily if you want to have any mitigation at all. So that leaves you with Discharge and a number of other abilities which are mostly proc'd and/or low threat.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to grab snap threat at arbitrary mechanically-enforced points more easily than the other tanks, because it is. However, assassins do not by any means have better sustained threat or damage, nor do they have better snap threat (assuming all cooldowns available) outside of the VERY first GCD. Ideally played, all three of the tanks are about even in terms of sustained DPS and threat, while shadows can burst threat more frequently with lower results and vanguards/guardians can burst less frequently with higher results.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

HBCentaurion's Avatar


HBCentaurion
06.04.2014 , 03:31 PM | #10
Can you please tell me how a jugg can creating more "snap" threat than an assassin tank? I'm really curious about that.