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T2 Scout Offensive Abilities Roundtable

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
T2 Scout Offensive Abilities Roundtable

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
05.22.2014 , 11:17 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
I think that following this path is going astray with the initial objective.
Removing the ability to deal with turrets is one thing... But isn't the main reason of this discussion the fact it obliterates with much more ease than every other cannons about every ships, which mainly have little to no armor ?
Removing amror pen doesn't solve anything when the victims have almost inexistant armor. That's why it is unimportant and misleading.

In addition I'd really like that much for BLC to be balanced for what it is : a weapon. As such, it can potentially be installed on every ship category. At the moment it's not, but maybe one day we'll see a strike with them for example. So if we try to balance it with scouts in mind, the risk is that the weapon may be useless on every actual and future non Scout ship that have access to them.

I find it dommageable trying to balance it according to a particular ship.

Side Note : I also think that turrets suffer from design issues that they need to be changed... I am even tempted to think we shouldn't have them anymore.
Fair enough. Doesn't change my point that battlescouts can choose the best offensive loadout for dogfighting without any cost to their performance in ability to kill armored targets. Where's the logic in allowing a scout, a ship that's supposed to specialize in a particular type of combat, to have multirole versatility that doesn't come at the price of losing some of the specialization capability?

It might not solve BLCs themselves but it might help with the battlescout's offensive if they had to choose between cluster missiles for optimal dogfighting against minimally armored targets or rocket pods for some capability against armored targets.
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
05.22.2014 , 12:01 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Magira View Post
Scrab fly with Quads and increased Range Pods.
He's changed his loadout, then. It used to be BLC. But with Scrab, it generally doesn't matter. He can fly with a broken slingshot and still get 15 kills. -bp

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
05.22.2014 , 12:02 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Karlbadmanners View Post
I think a good step would be to remember T2 scouts are paper thin, and that when pilots around it's target are paying attention they are neutralized rather quickly almost always.
Maybe on your server, but not on the Hawk - hell, I can fly one of those things and survive for quite a bit thanks to evasion and Power Dive. -bp

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
05.22.2014 , 12:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Sidenti View Post
First: According to Dulfy, those things hit for around 933 or so at 500m. Combine that with Blaster Overcharge and maxed-out plasma rocket pods, and it's absolutely no surprise cattlescout pilots like Scrab get the kills they do. (Piloting skill does help, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's not strictly necessary to have.)
No sh*t its insansely good with offensive cooldowns, me and several other posters have already stated that the issue with cattlescout's potency is directly linked to the available offensive cooldowns, not with the primaries themselves.

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Second: The BLC is clearly meant to fill a combat shotgun role. If you want effectiveness at range with a firearm, selecting a shotgun is probably not going to get you there as fast as a rifle would. So, the BLC really isn't supposed to be that effective at range.
No sh*t again.

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Third: Fighting at within 1000m is kinda the cattlescout's bread and butter. I don't know how you fly yours, but without exception, every competent cattlescout pilot on the Ebon Hawk is a close-range blast-and-bolt fighter.
Ok lesion on shooting since you really don't have a clue. When tracking a moving target, it becomes more difficult to hit the closer the target is, because you have to turn faster in order to track smaller movements. At longer ranges such a 5k a target that moves around 1k laterally, is about a inch movement across my screen, at <500m a 1k movement puts the target completely off of my screen. The reaction time required to track an opponent who is trying to evade or hell moving at all isn't humanly possible at <500m. The only time targets are hit at <500m are on very lucky shots or on extremely slow targets like bombers, stationary and oblivious gunships, and targets flying in a straight line.

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Finally, the BLC is ALREADY inferior to all of its competing loadout options beyond 500m (and STILL inferior to LLC within 500m). So there won't be any change. The situation you describe is already reality.
So you want to make them even worse?

Quote:
But I could see just reducing BLC's damage by 10% if its ridiculous 115% aim at close range were looked at. I mean, I get what they're thinking ("it must be accurate at close range because shotgun!"), but anyone who's ever trained with a combat shotgun will tell you lethality at close range comes from having A) heavy shot and B) aiming squarely at center mass. Even being a little off to the side can mean the difference between wounded attacker and corpse.
ok so you want to make it so a weapon that is only effective at close ranges, unable to hit things at close ranges. GENIUS
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

If you fail, fail dramatically. At least you will prove the error of your tactics to your successors
- Scott Westerfeld, The Killing of Worlds

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.22.2014 , 01:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
No sh*t its insansely good with offensive cooldowns, me and several other posters have already stated that the issue with cattlescout's potency is directly linked to the available offensive cooldowns, not with the primaries themselves.
Except there are all these niggling details that don't support that conclusion.

For example:

Is the problem just BO? It can't be, because lots of people use TT.

Then, is it that both BO and TT are overpowered individually? But then why isn't there a problem with the Novadive, which also has TT?

Maybe the problem is cluster missiles? But lots of people use rockets, and IMO rockets are actually somewhat better.

So, clusters OR rockets individually? But, again, Novadive has rockets.

Well maybe it's (BO or TT) and (clusters or rockets)? But, AGAIN, Novadive has TT+rockets.

Not to mention some people use booster recharge!

So, really the only thing we are left with to rigorously separate the Flashfire from the Novadive is the availability of quads and BLC - which are also the two most favored weapons for the Flashfire.

So IMO it's only when the whole package of (quads or BLC) and (clusters or rockets) comes together on a scout frame (we aren't nearly as scared of quads/clusters on e.g. a Pike) that we get something distinctly more powerful than any other dogfighter. We get that even if we forgo offensive cooldowns entirely (with booster recharge).

That's why it's so incredibly difficult for us to work this out, because no single component change really works.



How does this reflect on my proposal to remove armor pen from BLC?

Well, the trick is that removing armor pen from BLC is also a stealth nerf to quads, because it makes DR more viable.

This nerf to quads doesn't hurt the Starguard or Pike as much, because they both almost certainly have access to at least one armor pen weapon.

The corner case here is that quads/rockets, already a popular build, is hurt least, so this still isn't a total solution.

If I were going to propose a next step, it would actually be replacing the Flashfire's distortion field with feedback shield - a pretty serious defensive nerf that makes flying a Flashfire a lot riskier.

Alternately, maybe remove quads from the Flashfire entirely and replace them with regular lasers. That restricts quads to strike fighters, and also gives us a way to buff strike fighters without worrying about buffing Flashfires.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
05.22.2014 , 02:16 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
snip

Well see the thing with BLC is at the baseline level they are not actually that strong. A close range BLC hit with increased shield damage that doesn't crit against a shielded target tops out at 900-1k. Which is pretty hefty however you have to remember BLC also has a very low RoF and again <500m.

A target caught unawares by that could still easily have time to respond, evade, and counter. Where BLC begin to get excessive is when you start throwing in crits which can go upwards of 1500, crits are what allow targets to be killed before they can evade. Crits are also what makes BLC so potent with TT compared to other weapons because TT takes BLC's already large crits and makes them even more insane. That's also why CF is extremely potent with BLC as well.

As for TT and quad'n'pods, the simple solution would be to make TT not effect secondaries,

Perhaps rather than doing sweeping damage nerfs to BLC, would be to first remove the passive crit chance inherent in BLC, and then more importantly cut down the base crit multiplier for BLC. So instead of BLC having base 50% crit multiplier it would have say a 20% multiplier. That way even if your stacking crit cooldowns you won't be able to reach the crazy burst numbers.

There are a few other things that could be looked at such as armor pen. I wouldn't remove the armor pen entirely from BLC but BLC should not exceed 50% armor pen imo.

Now Blaster Overcharge is a whole different beast. I would argue that BO is by itself overpowered and needs a direct nerf. (I've done 90k damage/20 kills with BO and RFL)

The premise for my reasoning is that BLC are not by themselves overpowered, what makes scouts overpowered is that BLC/quad'n'pods+ OCD allow the scout to kill a target before the target is humanly able to react. After all when you are aware you are fighting against a BLC scout it is not that hard to defend against, keeping the scout from attaining a clear shot at <500m is easy to do even in a strike. However if you die before you realize the scout is there, that is where the unbalance begins.

As for nerfing the cattlescout's defensive capability, lets balance the burst build first and then see where the cattlescouts stands before anything drastic is done.
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

If you fail, fail dramatically. At least you will prove the error of your tactics to your successors
- Scott Westerfeld, The Killing of Worlds

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
05.22.2014 , 08:33 PM | #27
Wow! You know the drill. XD

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
No sh*t its insansely good with offensive cooldowns, me and several other posters have already stated that the issue with cattlescout's potency is directly linked to the available offensive cooldowns, not with the primaries themselves. Congrats?


No sh*t again. Congrats again, then!


Ok lesion on shooting since you really don't have a clue. When tracking a moving target, it becomes more difficult to hit the closer the target is, because you have to turn faster in order to track smaller movements. At longer ranges such a 5k a target that moves around 1k laterally, is about a inch movement across my screen, at <500m a 1k movement puts the target completely off of my screen. The reaction time required to track an opponent who is trying to evade or hell moving at all isn't humanly possible at <500m. The only time targets are hit at <500m are on very lucky shots or on extremely slow targets like bombers, stationary and oblivious gunships, and targets flying in a straight line.

So you want to make them even worse? Look, if I can do it, it can't be THAT difficult.


ok so you want to make it so a weapon that is only effective at close ranges, unable to hit things at close ranges. Right now it has the highest accuracy of anything >500m available to the cattlescout. It also has a potentially huge tracking pattern. If I nick someone with a side-blast from those BLCs, it counts for full damage. That wouldn't be the case with an actual shotgun-style blaster if it follows a combat shotgun's blueprint. If the engine can't handle a scaling blast cone, it stands to reason to dial down close-range accuracy a smidge (which can be gained back with TT, might I add - try other components sometime! They're interesting!)GENIUS I try to impress. Anything further? This was fun! -bp

Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
05.22.2014 , 09:18 PM | #28
Zoom, that's kind of what I was hitting on... the problem seems to be more from all the stacking of crit and crit magnitude that a Type 2 has access to. I think slight adjustments there will help make things more balanced for them, and it gets to what is really causing the problem. My gunship needs to hit even scouts a few times with BLCs and with weapon power focused... I've had type 2's blow up strikes and other heavier targets in 2 shots.
Ithyrn (Guardian), Malachais (Gunslinger), Ez'kiel (Commando), Ben'adar (Scoundrel)
Ithryn (Operative), Ithric (Juggernaut), Thar'kun (Pyrotech)
Shadowlands Server

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
05.22.2014 , 10:01 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Sidenti View Post
Wow! You know the drill. XD
For the love of god, is separating a quote into blocks to damn hard for people?

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Right now it has the highest accuracy of anything >500m available to the cattlescout.
wat
BLC at <500m is 123% accuracy, at 500m to 3000m it has 93% accuracy and at 3000 to 4000m it has a staggering 78% accuracy.
Every single primary weapon in the game has better accuracy than BLC at ranges >500m, the only exception is RFL and that's only for 500m to 3000m.

Quote:
It also has a potentially huge tracking pattern. If I nick someone with a side-blast from those BLCs, it counts for full damage. That wouldn't be the case with an actual shotgun-style blaster if it follows a combat shotgun's blueprint. If the engine can't handle a scaling blast cone, it stands to reason to dial down close-range accuracy a smidge
Again WTH are you talking about. Every weapon in the game counts as a full hit no matter if its a graze or not. I will also point out the extreme accuracy is the only way you can hit anything at close ranges because of the weird tracking penalty behaviors that occur at extreme close range.
Crinn
Trooper Hunter

If you fail, fail dramatically. At least you will prove the error of your tactics to your successors
- Scott Westerfeld, The Killing of Worlds

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
05.23.2014 , 12:49 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Again WTH are you talking about. Every weapon in the game counts as a full hit no matter if its a graze or not. I will also point out the extreme accuracy is the only way you can hit anything at close ranges because of the weird tracking penalty behaviors that occur at extreme close range.
What he wants to say -I believe- is that an actual shotgun in a game shouldn't be single target with accuracy checks. It should be an AoE with diminished damage according to both range and how much of centered the target his (the grazing thing).

Personally, I think we can't make an actual shotgun in this game. However I think we can make a kind of one, but it would need some limitations that BLC has not. I think that if shotguns should be in the game, it should be a weapon category with its own limitations and tactics, not a cannon with approximately similar damage capacity.

It's true that BLC upgrades are too strong, there's not even an upgrade that is not really offensive, and the higher crit chances are a direct consequence... But IMO, cannons should be cannons. They all should similar, only differentiating with range, and whether its better centered or off-centered.
BLC here is too particular in my opinion. It has its own conditions and counters clearly different from other cannons.
The conditions aren't that hard, and since the way to counter is different (not turning but maintaining respectable distance when possible), how to say it... The level of reactivity and "cleverness" needed to counteract are not at a regular level, even without systems abilities, and result in take your much bigger damage or die... Well, it's stepping in the world of "potentially OP" on its own, when just accounting its damage profile.