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T2 Scout Offensive Abilities Roundtable

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
T2 Scout Offensive Abilities Roundtable

DamascusAdontise's Avatar


DamascusAdontise
05.21.2014 , 11:02 AM | #1
There has been a lot of talk on how to address T2 scout dominance. One resounding factor that keeps being brought up is damage. The general consensus is that they do too much "burst" damage for what they are. There is some debate as to defensive abilities and other issues such as evasion but IMO we could address a big part of the problem with the Offensive Components (other stuff may not need to be touched if this is done well)

This is beneficial mainly due to the fact that the 2 Offensive components addressed here are specific to the scout, so no other ship has to be affected from these changes.

Lets start by looking at the two offensive components and the one crew ability that is most often used for any T2 Scout build:

Spoiler


When Coupled with:

Burst Laser: Increased Critical Hit Chance 5%, Critical Damage 50%

There is massive damage and crit potential. IMO this is fine though there should be some negative effect that goes along with the offensive "damage" components. Something that makes people think twice before using them (adding a level of tactical use) - (assuming the negative sufficiently decreases their burst damage potential)

My Suggestion:

Blaster Overcharge - On activation Weapon Power Regeneration is Decreased 14%, weapon efficiency is decreased 15%

(these numbers could be bumped up to decrease burst damage by reducing "potential damage" by reducing "potential shots".)

Why: This way it costs more to fire with the ability activated, also gives a reason to choose the +14% regeneration from the T4 upgrade. (Stands to reason that something called blaster overcharge would cost more per shot) - Also nullifies the crew engineering efficiency bonus for the duration.

After Blaster Overcharge duration is over it applies a debuff: locks out laser weapons for 3 seconds, stops weapon power regen for 3 seconds.

Why: This would make it so that scouts are vulnerable just after using the ability. If changed as such scouts would have to pick and choose when to use this more carefully, as they would be mostly dead offensively for a short time after.

(Space Saved for Targeting Telemetry Tweak - I need to eat breakfast)

This post is intended as a place to share your ideas, this is one "outside of the box" idea on how to balance TT and BO, I would enjoy to see your ideas as well and maybe together we can come up with something that will work.

Alternatively: I have also played with the idea of making it so that you can only have 1 offensive ability active at any time. Forcing people to split up concentrated fire and BO / TT use (this would reduce burst potential, without nerfing either ability - just a thought)
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Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
05.21.2014 , 11:45 AM | #2
From a lore and engineering perspective reduced efficiency makes a lot of sense. From a curing type 2 scouts standpoint I'm not sure it would do much good.

The BLC scout build is all about intermittent high burst damage, as long as you can still pull off intermittent high levels of burst it doesn't matter all that much if it's inefficient compared to other choices. Also doesn't matter if bits of your ship get so hot that they glow red for a few seconds.

It's a matter of high damage per trigger pull, and needing to spend a very small proportion of time on target over the lead indicator.

I think what inefficiency would do is just incentivize slash and run tactics over turning fights a bit. It wouldn't change the, "zoom in and blow them up before they can blink," nature of type 2 scout engagements.

To change them to a more, "scouty," playstyle you need to get them in a place where speed and turning compose more of their offensive (and perhaps defensive) power. So for example, you don't do a head to head joust unless the opponent is already severely damaged because it would be suicidal. You go for a deflection shot or a tail chase.
Problem with that is that the GSF system is constructed in a way that makes a tail chase where you can sit there and blast away at a less maneuverable target extremely difficult to pull off.

In a sense scouts are given too much compensation in firepower and durability because GSF is set up in a way that makes it hard to extract the value that they should be getting from speed and maneuverability advantages.
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 12:18 PM | #3
I think the best first step is to remove armor penetration from BLCs.

The idea of a scout is that it is fast, maneuverable, and very effective against "light" targets. It should have a lot more difficulty dealing with "heavy" targets. Without armor penetration, battle scouts would be kings of scout dogfighting and still very, very good at killing gunships (even gunships that take deflection armor), but they would have a lot more difficulty dealing with turrets and high-armor strikes/bombers.

Now, some scouts use quads just as effectively as BLC, so you might wonder whether this fixes anything if everyone can just switch to quads. The answer is that without BLC armor pen in the meta, damage reduction becomes much more viable for everyone. As a result, quads will ALSO be weaker because more people will be using defensive statistics that are effective against them.

You may need to make some changes to cooldowns too, but this change alone would go a long way to fixing things. It's reasonable for scouts to do a lot of damage to targets that should be vulnerable to them. They should do much less damage to the targets that are supposed to be resistant to them.

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
05.21.2014 , 12:29 PM | #4
I like Kuci's proposal. It makes a modest nerf to scout offensive power and makes both primary and secondary weapons choices more interesting. Quads vs BLCs becomes very competitive and for secondary weapons you have the spammy missile or the high skill armor piercing weapon.

Still might be a bit on the overly bursty side, but it'll take more skill to pull it off and mild nerfs that create more interesting choices in build and gameplay options is definitely the way to go about fixing overpowered game elements.
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 12:34 PM | #5
I envision the proper game balance as being something like this:

Your team needs bombers to deny/defend space and provide support abilities (healing drone, hyper beacon).

Your team needs strike fighters to intercept enemy bombers, attack hard targets like turrets, and in general provide a mobile mid-range heavy weapons platform that can dogfight competently.

Your team needs scouts to out-dogfight strike fighters, penetrate enemy lines to attack their vulnerable artillery (gunships), and provide extremely mobile general support (e.g. fastest ship at reinforcing a position across the map).

Your team needs gunships to provide a (comparatively) immobile long-range heavy weapons platform that, like, bombers, serves to deny space but, unlike bombers, denies space far away rather than the space right next to it. This gives it a somewhat more offensive character than bombers, and a particularly strong application of this role is in attacking bombers.

The problem is not just that battle scouts are too good at their job; it's that battle scouts aren't weak enough at the other jobs.



Note that the above is mostly thinking of domination. TDM is a very different animal that in some senses is fundamental broken. Terrain matters very little in TDM, and so controlling space has very little value - unless you put a gunship in that space, at which point you have two ships almost completely covering for each other's weaknesses without any need for the other two ship classes. This can't happen in domination because of the node's LOS, which makes gunships dislike actually being on the node.

TrinityLyre's Avatar


TrinityLyre
05.21.2014 , 12:39 PM | #6
I agree with a lot of your basic assertions, but...
Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
keeps being brought up is damage.
Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
they do too much damage for what they are.
Too much burst damage. Other ships are capable of putting up big numbers over extended periods of time. See:

Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
CF: 6 seconds
Blaster Overcharge: 8 seconds
Targeting Telemetry: 15 seconds

When coupled with just about anything, but BLC/Quads/Pods are the big ones right now.
Fixed. And fixes shouldn't target one of these weapon components and avoid the others, which is why we're speaking about touching TT/BO, right?

Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
There is massive damage and crit potential. IMO this is fine
So you're OK with Bypass > Slug, Slug Railgun crit one-shots on scouts, Seismic/Interdiction one-shots on scouts, and other forms of ridiculous burst damage that prevent enemies from being able to react or play the game? Being able to pop 1 or 2 buttons and instantly win is what I find needs balance, nothing else (that's relevant to the thread).

Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
Blaster Overcharge - On activation Weapon Power Regeneration is Decreased 14%, weapon efficiency is decreased 15%
This leaves burst damage the way it is, which is what should be fixed. Also, lock out players after BO is over? You've already killed them, what difference does that make?

Quote: Originally Posted by DamascusAdontise View Post
(Space Saved for Targeting Telemetry Tweak - I need to eat breakfast)
Hopefully it's brain food (not meant to be an insult, just being silly ) - address burst potential here. I can come up with some solutions but they're mostly just changes turning these abilities from direct damage buffs to utility (Booster Recharge, Sensor Beacon, etc.). In a world without TT/BO, scouts would still be short-range kings, speedy support and superior dogfighters.
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DamascusAdontise's Avatar


DamascusAdontise
05.21.2014 , 01:04 PM | #7
For one thing, I didn't mention other ship components since this is directly about T2 Scout Offensive abilties hehe. I am not okay with Interdiction one shooting scouts (but this is being adressed in 2.9), I am however okay with bypass + slug (bypass was already toned down, if it needs further tweaks it will have to be with slug.)

And yes when I say too much damage I mean too much burst damage (ill have to fix that in the op)

(I listed the stats on the offensive abilities, burst laser, and CF so that we know what we are working with)

And no my suggested changes would not affect the burst potential of the setup, but it would make shooting more costly (you will get less shots off) and it FORCES players to kill within 9 seconds (which gives a chance to the victim to avoid / flee) after this time the scout would be vulnerable giving victims additional time to react.

Whether this affects burst or not is likely a function of how inefficient they are. If its 25 or 35% less efficient and each shot does lots of damage, but your limited in how many you can take.. does it not affect burs tthen (this is a jump off point idea)

(this change is less about directly reducing burst and more about making BO more costly, indirectly affecting the amount of shots you can take thus affecting damage on a whole)

This is also an attempt at fixing scouts in the offensive abilities (BO, TT) without doing too much to lasers or defensive abilities. Like I said, there is an opportunity with these to affect ONLY the scout without touching anything else =)

I am honestly fine with scouts getting "damage buffs" , this is a well established concept. I do however think that there needs to be tuning done and this is just one "outside of the box" suggestion at fixing it. I wanted this to be a grand sharing of ideas and perhaps if this gets us thinking then maybe something will come of it.

(I had an idea for TT but it needs work, we could especially use suggestions for that. I thought about a 20% evasion debuff for 3 seconds afterward and some increase in cost of use (but this doesn't really fit)

*EDIT*
How about something simple like: You can only use one offensive ability at a time, making it so that you cannot use crew abilities at the same time as offensive components IE bypass and CF - this would reduce burst potential, not much but some (it would at least keep people from stacking offensive buffs to be uber killers)

*2nd EDIT* - While I appreciate suggestions that don't involve "offensive component abilities" this is not what the thread is about. This is purely about addressing battlescout dominance through offensive component ability tuning.
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 01:24 PM | #8
btw, I'm curious why we aren't also examining the role of rocket pods in this problem.

DamascusAdontise's Avatar


DamascusAdontise
05.21.2014 , 01:28 PM | #9
because its not a scout smorgasbord about how to address the issue from weapons / missiles / defensive etc. This is just about the offensive component abilities, which contribute in large part to the burstiness of the scout (which is the problem right?)

IMO scouts should be bursty and evasive, its just how much so.
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Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
05.21.2014 , 02:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
I think the best first step is to remove armor penetration from BLCs.

The idea of a scout is that it is fast, maneuverable, and very effective against "light" targets. It should have a lot more difficulty dealing with "heavy" targets.
But it also makes sense for a weapon which have more concentrated and powerful shots to be able to deal with heavy armors and/or to partly bypass shields... Which BLC is.

IMO, armor pen is the least problematic part of BLC. As an argument, I'd like to point how they are shredding every ship, not only the armored ones. However, I'd also say they probably shouldn't be able to stack both armor pen and 16% increased hull damage. Not that many people use that combination, but still...

Seriously, I think the problem is rather than when entering its efficient range, which let's admit it isn't that hard, it packs the best accuracy, best tracking penalties, best burstiness, best firing arc, and almost best DPS.

I think that if a weapon is meant to be that good in turning wars and opportunity shots, then it just shouldn't be able to compete in head-on fights and/or fights that imply long firing time.

Basically, I think that the shotgun like damage profile is just not fitting and healthy for a weapon with such properties in a game like GSF.