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DEVS: Does "Firing Arc" describe the radius or diameter of the aiming circle?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
DEVS: Does "Firing Arc" describe the radius or diameter of the aiming circle?

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
05.21.2014 , 04:18 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
By the way, if y'all want an algorithm that doesn't involve comparing two radiuses, just measure the diameter of a satellite in game-meters (using the HUD-reported distance to a turret on the other side), then find the distance to the satellite in game-meters (again by targeting a turret) at which the reticle perfectly circumscribes the satellite.

Bam. Done.
It would work... but the first measurement would need to be taken in action, with the said turrets attacking you. (And inaccurate at it since distance are shown in hundreds)

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.21.2014 , 04:19 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Dude. We can see objects that lie on the surface of the cone. We can estimate the distance to those objects visually (or via the HUD if they are targetable). Bam, you just eyeball the angle between the two objects.

this. is. not. hard. In real life you could do it 100% of the time, unless you are just spatially challenged. Look at two objects in the distance and you can estimate the angle between them.

Mentally draw a line from yourself to object A, mentally draw a line from yourself to object B, imagine yourself standing over the scene, eyeball the angle. Bam.
Bam?! Read what you just wrote. You think you can take our first person perspective and mentally rotate that (so that you're looking down at it) and tell me whether a firing arc is 17 degrees or 34 degrees?

If you can do that, then you should be able to do the inverse, right?

We can all imagine looking down at a right angle... so it should be simple to just rotate it into first person, right?

Okay, then draw me a 90 degree Firing Arc circle.

You still don't understand that, depending on the distance the circle represents, it could be drawn to any size. Without having any idea what that distance is, and without knowing the details of the game's viewing frustrum and field of view, you can't trust any of your "eyeball" intuition in this case. 3D game viewports, despite appearances, are NOT similar to your real life field of view.

And your binocular vision does not magically penetrate a 2D screen to help you out.

And honestly, even if you are trusting your "eyeball" intuition, doesn't the firing angle of upgraded BLC's feel a lot closer to 76 degrees than it does to 38? 38 degrees is a tiny sliver well under 45 degrees. I don't think BLC's feel that constrained. How am I able to hit targets <500 "meters" away when they are at the very edge of my screen?
Shayd/Callem - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 04:46 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
It would work... but the first measurement would need to be taken in action, with the said turrets attacking you. (And inaccurate at it since distance are shown in hundreds)
In order to distinguish between radius and diameter we only need accuracy within an order of magnitude.

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 05:05 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Bam?! Read what you just wrote. You think you can take our first person perspective and mentally rotate that (so that you're looking down at it) and tell me whether a firing arc is 17 degrees or 34 degrees?
In real life? Absolutely yes. In GSF? Only slightly more difficult because our depth perception is worse.

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If you can do that, then you should be able to do the inverse, right?

We can all imagine looking down at a right angle... so it should be simple to just rotate it into first person, right?

Okay, then draw me a 90 degree Firing Arc circle.
It is way harder to do with still images, since parallax is a huge part of depth perception. Let me look for a good screenshot on Google, or make one later in-game.

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You still don't understand that, depending on the distance the circle represents, it could be drawn to any size. Without having any idea what that distance is, and without knowing the details of the game's viewing frustrum and depth of field, you can't trust any of your "eyeball" intuition in this case. 3D game viewports, despite appearances, are NOT similar to your real life field of view.
No, it cannot be any size. In addition to failures of imagination, you keep making blatantly false statements about the relevant geometry.

There are two constraints on the circle, and those constraints are neither over- nor under-determined, but rather uniquely define the circle: every object depicted inside of the circle is within the firing arc, and every object depicted outside the circle is outside the firing arc.

There is only one circle on the HUD that has that property.

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And your binocular vision does not magically penetrate a 2D screen to help you out.
Depth perception is not just binocular vision, which anyone with two functioning eyes can verify. Close one eye and you can still estimate distances pretty well.

So, not only are you getting basic geometry wrong, you also apparently lack familiarity with normal human faculties like "vision". You're failing the Turing Test hard.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.21.2014 , 05:45 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
No, it cannot be any size. In addition to failures of imagination, you keep making blatantly false statements about the relevant geometry.

There are two constraints on the circle, and those constraints are neither over- nor under-determined, but rather uniquely define the circle: every object depicted inside of the circle is within the firing arc, and every object depicted outside the circle is outside the firing arc.

There is only one circle on the HUD that has that property.
Yes, the circle for a particular firing arc can be only one size for a given field of view. And we can estimate what proportion of the field of view the firing arc circle takes up. But as we do not know the game's field of view (measured in degrees), we cannot know the size of the firing arc in degrees. This is what I meant when I said the circle could be drawn at any size, though I admit I put it poorly and put the cart before the horse in some respects.

In real life, humans have a field of view of roughly 180 degrees. Most first person shooters, on the other hand, have a field of view of 80-100 degrees. As far as GSF, it's hard to guess what the field of vision is. It feels like it's higher than you'd have in a first person shooter, and objects definitely become skewed as they approach the peripheral, but I can't say for sure.

We can probably just measure the diameter of a Firing Arc as a percentage of the width of the screen and infer from there.

Looking at this screenshot from the tutorial... http://www.containsmoderateperil.com...Tutorial-1.jpg, the diameter of the firing arc of the Light Lasers seems to be just about exactly one third the width of the screen.

If the Firing Arc (28 degrees for LLC's) is diameter, this would mean the field of view of the game is ~84 degrees. If Firing Arc is the radius, this would mean the field of view is 168 degrees.

84 seems low given the peripheral vision we have in GSF, but 168 seems a bit high.

In other words, Idunnolol :P

Either way, it's been a fun thread. Yes, you too Kuci
Shayd/Callem - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 05:57 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Yes, the circle for a particular firing arc can be only one size for a given field of view. And we can estimate what proportion of the field of view the firing arc circle takes up. But as we do not know the game's field of view (measured in degrees), we cannot know the size of the firing arc in degrees. This is what I meant when I said the circle could be drawn at any size, though I admit I put it poorly and put the cart before the horse in some respects.
  1. That's not what you said. You claimed we needed to know something about the distance to the circle. No we don't. In fact, the circle needn't have a distance, it can be purely an apparent circle. It is in fact the projection/intersection of a cone whose origin is at the camera origin onto/with the screen.
  2. Irrelevant anyway. I see two objects at opposite edges of the reticle. I can tell the distance between those two objects. I can tell the distance from myself to those two objects. All of these abilities are approximate but still precise enough to give me angles within an order of magnitude. To do this I needed to know nothing about the field of view.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.21.2014 , 06:22 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
  1. That's not what you said. You claimed we needed to know something about the distance to the circle. No we don't. In fact, the circle needn't have a distance, it can be purely an apparent circle. It is in fact the projection/intersection of a cone whose origin is at the camera origin onto/with the screen.
  2. Irrelevant anyway. I see two objects at opposite edges of the reticle. I can tell the distance between those two objects. I can tell the distance from myself to those two objects. All of these abilities are approximate but still precise enough to give me angles within an order of magnitude. To do this I needed to know nothing about the field of view.
On #1, yes you're right. I was incorrectly thinking of the circle as a projected object at some point in front of the camera--it is in fact pasted onto the camera lens at zero distance, so to speak.

On #2, while I can quickly intuit the distance between myself and a ship, I wouldn't say I've got the knack of swiftly judging the distance between two objects that aren't me in GSF--especially for very close objects in the peripheral or very distant objects whose models are hard to see. Medium distance objects? Maybe a bit better. It doesn't help that a GSF "meter" is tiny (such that ships are a few hundred meters tall).

With that in mind, I have less confidence in my ability mentally to draw the triangle, translate my perspective above/below it, and eyeball the angle at my vertex.

And when I do try, I still feel like BLC's seem like ~76 degrees and not ~38. I would expect 38 to feel far more narrow, considering it's not only acute, but below 45 degrees. But again, whether something feels "narrow" relative to the rest of the view all depends on how many degrees the field of view actually is.

I looked at some old threads about people discussing SWTOR FoV, and it sounds like on the ground, the Fov is ~90, though changes when you get in a speeder to something more like ~110-120.

And I still want to see you draw a 90 degree firing arc :P
Shayd/Callem - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.21.2014 , 11:36 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
And I still want to see you draw a 90 degree firing arc :P
Well here you go: http://i.imgur.com/WuTn5Kd.jpg

Note that we know, for a certainty, that it is wider than the screen. This is because we know that the line from the leftmost edge of the satellite to the point on the satellite just in front of me forms a right angle with the line from the the rightmost edge to the same point. And yet the left and right edges are not visible, but must be contained within the circle, which means the circle must be bigger than the screen.

We can get a lower bound on 30 degrees radius / 60 degree diameter as well by using the two "fins" opposite my ship. They form an equilateral triangle with the "fin" in front of me.

Silly ryuku and atheran for bothering with actual trig

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.22.2014 , 08:33 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Well here you go: http://i.imgur.com/WuTn5Kd.jpg

Note that we know, for a certainty, that it is wider than the screen. This is because we know that the line from the leftmost edge of the satellite to the point on the satellite just in front of me forms a right angle with the line from the the rightmost edge to the same point. And yet the left and right edges are not visible, but must be contained within the circle, which means the circle must be bigger than the screen.

We can get a lower bound on 30 degrees radius / 60 degree diameter as well by using the two "fins" opposite my ship. They form an equilateral triangle with the "fin" in front of me.

Silly ryuku and atheran for bothering with actual trig
Satellites will now be called space-protractors. Very clever solution Kuci.

With regard to the fins though, what side of them are you looking at? Your ship is closest to the outer edge of the front fin. So if you want to view yourself as being at one vertex of an equilateral triangle, you have to look at the far/back sides of the other two fins. And they do not fit in your firing arc. Or is that the point you're making--that we can see the fring arc is not big enough to represent a 60 degree angle, and thus must be diameter?

You may be okay at trig after all I apologize for saying otherwise (though that was mainly a play on your other reply to me elsethread).

I just got irked because I thought you were saying you could eyeball an angle from its vertex without any points of reference. Like, "Oh that circle is clearly 34 degrees. I can tell because I'm a wizard." Then when you started talking about street intersections, I again assumed you were missing the bit about being inside the vertex in the same plane as the streets, rather than slightly above it.

Then I rat-holed too much on my "cone" metaphor (which was me trying to explain the need to find some lateral distance to measure) and then ended up mixing up talking about that distance and the actual circles. I blame it on trying to post between tasks and meetings at work :P

Anyway, it seems to be we can confirm Firing Arc is diameter.
Shayd/Callem - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.22.2014 , 09:04 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Satellites will now be called space-protractors. Very clever solution Kuci.

With regard to the fins though, what side of them are you looking at? Your ship is closest to the outer edge of the front fin. So if you want to view yourself as being at one vertex of an equilateral triangle, you have to look at the far/back sides of the other two fins. And they do not fit in your firing arc. Or is that the point you're making--that we can see the fring arc is not big enough to represent a 60 degree angle, and thus must be diameter?
Yes.

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You may be okay at trig after all
Yes, I would hope that a BS in math would confer on me some level of proficiency.

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I apologize for saying otherwise (though that was mainly a play on your other reply to me elsethread).


Quote:
I just got irked because I thought you were saying you could eyeball an angle from its vertex without any points of reference. Like, "Oh that circle is clearly 34 degrees. I can tell because I'm a wizard." Then when you started talking about street intersections, I again assumed you were missing the bit about being inside the vertex in the same plane as the streets, rather than slightly above it.
The thing is, you can do this sort of thing without an ideal test like the one I set up. When you are actually in motion, the human eye and brain are astonishingly good at the reverse rendering problem, even with monocular vision. If you are actually proficient at reorienting geometric objects in your mind (which I am, and which I imagine most good pilots must be) then you can absolutely just imagine "what if I were standing over there? what would my firing arc look like?".

The firing arc in my screenshot is 32 degrees (BLC). If that were radius, it would be a 64 degree total arc. Think about how wide 64 degrees is! That's enormous! That's an entire third of the space in front of your ship (measured within the plane)! Does it really look like BLCs can hit things within that wide of an arc? No way.