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Imagine a world where LLC's were totally overpowered...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Imagine a world where LLC's were totally overpowered...

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.20.2014 , 10:42 AM | #1
From a discussion with Verain in the LLC tracking penalty thread ... imagine Light Laser Cannons were buffed in some dramatic way that made them the new overpowered short-range cannon. Maybe Tracking Penalty is reduced or accuracy is increased or whatever ... such that LLC's become totally overpowered, such that people even choose them over BLC's for short-range weapons. Heck, give LLC's every perk that BLC's have (shield or armor piercing, crit chance, etc.). Be bold and quick and go totally overboard.

Why would this be any better than the current situation, where BLC's are overpowered? Because unlike BLC's, which are available on 3 ships, LLC's are available on 9 ships. A buff to LLC's is a buff to most of the variants in the game.

It may seem crazy, but I think that'd be awesome. Suddenly, you'd have T1 Scouts, T2 Scouts, T3 Scouts, T2 Strikes, T3 Strikes, T1 Gunships, T1 Bombers, T2 Bombers and T3 Bombers all with viable short-range high-angle lethality.

It wouldn't be a nerf to either of the current BLC ships, since they could both opt for LLC's if they so chose. But it would be an immense buff to almost every other ship (sorry T1 Strike ). People would still take Quads and Mediums and HLC's if they preferred range, but for short range, LLC would be the new king--but unlike BLC's, LLC's are available on the vast majority of ship variants, creating a much more interesting tapestry of ship choices than we currently have--especially for Domination, where close-range fighting under a sat is vital.

Is this the perfect, ideal solution? No of course not. But it's a cheap, quick and simple move that immediately creates more viable play options for everyone, without hitting any of the current power-builds with the nerf bat. It's a win win for everyone, and this quick change buys BioWare time to do the more nuanced balancing and fixes.

Start with LLC's overtuned ... disrupt the meta. Then after things settle, adjust the knobs some more and do the more difficult comprehensive balancing. Fix Rapids. Find the right spot for LLC's. Find the right spot for BLC's.

After all, what is there to lose? In what way could this end up any worse than what we've been playing since launch? I think we've all had our fill of BLC's at this point, haven't we? Isn't it time to shake things up and keep them interesting? The best part is it doesn't involve creating a new variant or component. All you're doing is buffing a component that the vast majority of ships already have but rarely use.

Also LLC's are so iconic. Pew pew pew! Lasers ... lasers everywhere!
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

TrinityLyre's Avatar


TrinityLyre
05.20.2014 , 11:13 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
From a discussion with Verain in the LLC tracking penalty thread ... imagine Light Laser Cannons were buffed in some dramatic way that made them the new overpowered short-range cannon.
In a hypothetical world like this I'd prefer we give BLCs to every ship rather than LLCs get buffed. Why? BLCs are interesting and unique relative to other laser cannons. LLCs are still "click and hold with a little spray and pray." I like the gameplay differences of the laser such as taking snap shots, clicking and firing at the edge of your arc regularly (OP or not) and I think you focus more on just spreading the OP love around (which I agree with, entirely). I'd just rather have something that feels different (and it doesn't necessarily have to be BLC, but that does suit my needs).

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Why would this be any better than the current situation, where BLC's are overpowered? Because unlike BLC's, which are available on 3 ships, LLC's are available on 9 ships. A buff to LLC's is a buff to most of the variants in the game.
I agree with your assessment, but I don't think it's any better than giving BLC to every ship. I think playing a Star Guard/Rycer with BLC/HLC would be tremendously awesome and fun. Heck, I already made a suggestion in our <Bastion> mumble discussion last night that I thought would be fun (not necessarily good, but fun): new gunship with BLC/Cluster Missiles/Interdiction Missile. That would be so awesome to dogfight with!

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Is this the perfect, ideal solution? No of course not. But it's a cheap, quick and simple move that immediately creates more viable play options for everyone, without hitting any of the current power-builds with the nerf bat.
Replace LLC on a variety of ships with BLC and I think I would have more fun playing ships that aren't in the "ridiculously OP trio" (cattlescout, gunsheep, pie bomber).

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Fix Rapids. Find the right spot for LLC's. Find the right spot for BLC's.
That'd be nice, but I agree a quick and easy change is needed if the meta is to go anywhere (if my prediction is correct, it's nowhere pleasant next patch).

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
I think we've all had our fill of BLC's at this point, haven't we?
Honestly, I think the only thing that needs to go at this point is <1 second burst kills. It's the only thing that everyone seems to have a problem with. Originally, it was Bypass> Slug. Then it became Seismic/Interdiction. Slug Railgun crit one-shotting scouts isn't cool no matter how infrequently it happens (though it is satisfying if you're on the gunship). Pressing TT/BO/CF and click-holding for 1 second isn't an impressive display of skill, doesn't invite compensatory strategies nor is it fun to be on the receiving end.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
Isn't it time to shake things up and keep them interesting?

Always keep things interesting! As a side note, you seem to enjoy discussing theory and potential changes. You'd be welcome on our mumble any time - we have regular discussions about this sort of thing. I think having the veterans from various servers all together would result in fun (and interesting) conversations. If you do end up hopping on (let me know), I promise to put a shock collar on Verain.
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Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.20.2014 , 11:36 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by TrinityLyre View Post

I agree with your assessment, but I don't think it's any better than giving BLC to every ship.
Personally, I'm not a fan of BLC's because they don't feel very "Star Warsy" to me, and I generally dislike shotguns in shooters. But that's just a matter of personal preference. Star Wars, cinematically, has always been about spewing streams of lasers, and LLC's are patterned pretty literally off of TIE Fighter cannons. And having weapons that need at least a second or two of sustained fire to get through an opponent's shields means the target has a split second to react and evade before suffering grievous hull damage (which is not always true with BLC's).

Additionally, BLC's really do depend upon extreme mobility to be overpowered, since their damage drops off so quickly with range. They are relatively well balanced on a Gunship. It's only on a Scout, which has no problem boosting to sub-2000m range, that they are really broken. If you put BLC's on everything, Scouts would still use them far more effectively than Strikes or Gunships or Bombers. The only reason the new Gunship will be able to use BLC's in any kind of overpowered way is because of Interdiction Missile.

LLC's on the other hand, have a more gentle damage/range slope and can still deal good damage at the edge of their range. That means they'd be more viable for Strikes and Bombers which can't easily close to sub-2000m range.

More importantly, I don't think BioWare is going to add BLC's to every ship ... ever ... which is why I view a significant LLC buff as a more plausible change they could make that would have broad, meta-disrupting effects.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.20.2014 , 02:36 PM | #4
We've been over this; the tracking penalty on LLC's is not that big a deal. If you really find it crippling then you should stop and consider that you may just be bad at this game.

Zharik's Avatar


Zharik
05.20.2014 , 02:40 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
We've been over this; the tracking penalty on LLC's is not that big a deal.
So to use Nem's logic on you:
What ship designs do you use LLCs on?
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.20.2014 , 03:02 PM | #6
That doesn't follow, because his logic (as you apply it) assumes that BLC's advantage is in the tracking penalty. It isn't. BLC's advantage is intrinsic to the nature of a "burst" weapon in GSF, and secondarily (but very importantly) is in the armor pen.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.20.2014 , 03:30 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
That doesn't follow, because his logic (as you apply it) assumes that BLC's advantage is in the tracking penalty. It isn't. BLC's advantage is intrinsic to the nature of a "burst" weapon in GSF, and secondarily (but very importantly) is in the armor pen.
Well, let's put the tracking penalty argument aside (that's why I created this thread--to be a less specific discussion of what would happen if LLC's are buffed somehow).

The other thread was a question about whether the Tracking Penalty is too high. You've stated your reasoning for why you think it isn't, and that's fine, though you could stand to be less of a jerk about it in every single reply you make. I'll keep trying to treat you with respect though, in the hopes that you might afford me the same courtesy.

But getting back to this thread ... it's just proposing what I think would happen if LLC's were substantially buffed. Could be a combination of tracking penalty, rate of fire, crit chance, accuracy, piecing, etc. Clearly there is a reason no one ever uses LLC's if they have another viable choice. What would happen if that were no longer true, and what would be required to make that the case?
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
05.20.2014 , 04:21 PM | #8
You shouldn't focus on LLCs in any case, they're not on the (heroic effort here people, we have to try to keep straight faces) "no finer dogfighter" FT-8 Starguard.

The real laser cannon travesty is that you can't cycle fire mode on quads through single, paired and quad. They're stuck on paired.

How are we supposed to blow away unshielded scouts with a single trigger pull if we don't have quad linked fire?
Paired fire just doesn't give you enough oommph. The other problem is that spray and pray with paired sucks too much energy, we need unlinked single fire for that.
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GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
05.20.2014 , 06:27 PM | #9
I find it interesting that people keep comparing BLCs to shotguns. They really don't act that similarly.

IIRC the (Suspended? Cancelled? Hard to say at this point) Infiltrator class had a cone fire attack that is much more accurate to a shotgun then BLCs. If anything, a BLC behaves more closely to the burst fire mode of an (for example) M16 rifle.
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Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.20.2014 , 09:37 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
I find it interesting that people keep comparing BLCs to shotguns. They really don't act that similarly.
Because the flavor text for BLC's calls them scatterguns (which is SWTOR-speak for shotgun), because each shot is represented visual as a spread of bolts, and because in terms of game role they are very similar to FPS shotguns.