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Is Light Laser Cannon's tracking penalty too high?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
Is Light Laser Cannon's tracking penalty too high?

Kalphitis's Avatar


Kalphitis
05.19.2014 , 01:10 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Besides Shotguns are not actually that great of a shortrange weapon.
Umm....? Sarcasm?

Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
What makes a weapon good at shortrange is its compactness and ability to be moved in tight quarters, neither of which are inherent characteristics of a shotgun.
A pistol is about as compact and movable as it gets. That being said, if you have a pistol and you hear another person's "Ca-*****!" shotgun loading noise -- your *** will start running the other way. Always. Both in real life and in games.

Zoom_VI's Avatar


Zoom_VI
05.19.2014 , 01:14 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Kalphitis View Post
Umm....? Sarcasm?
Its true, there is a reason swat teams use assault rifles.



Quote:
A pistol is about as compact and movable as it gets. That being said, if you have a pistol and you hear another person's "Ca-*****!" shotgun loading noise -- your *** will start running the other way. Always. Both in real life and in games.
Getting shot with a pistol will still kill you, the only different between the two is the degree of mutilation of the body, shotguns don't make you any more dead.

Also the reason shotguns are feared in games is because in games stuff generally doesn't kill you with one shot and pistols are in every game I have ever played a weak weapon. I have also never played a game that takes into account a weapon's size. I.e I have never been running around in a game with a giant meter long sniper rifle and gotten hung up on something.
Crinn

Sanity is for the weak minded.

SammyGStatus's Avatar


SammyGStatus
05.19.2014 , 01:23 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Its true, there is a reason swat teams use assault rifles.

Getting shot with a pistol will still kill you, the only different between the two is the degree of mutilation of the body, shotguns don't make you any more dead.
Depends on what you mean by "more dead", which I can only assume is meant for the prevention of zombies. In this instance, a shotgun does make you more dead because of the potential limb loss / much bigger hole than a pistol (excluding a D.Eagle @ close range, but they have large caliber bullets for a pistol). To me, more dead = less likely you have the potential to come back as a zombie.

Please note, I have read The Zombie Survival Guide, and as such can enter a valid opinion on the discussion of more dead and zombies. LLCs should get a buff to make them playable
Renegade-One / Leggogurl / Aimbot / Even'ess / Status

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.19.2014 , 01:52 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoom_VI View Post
Why do people always thing BLC is supposed to be a shotgun.
1) its single target
and
2) it doesn't even look like a shotgun blast.

Besides Shotguns are not actually that great of a shortrange weapon. What makes a weapon good at shortrange is its compactness and ability to be moved in tight quarters, neither of which are inherent characteristics of a shotgun.
Because shotguns in video games are defined by how shotguns are actually portrayed in popular FPS e.g. Halo. Blah blah but that's not realistic blah blah tough deal with it. Video game tropes are video game tropes and you don't get to whine that video games use them.

Also the animation very clear shows "scattered" "pellets" that are very clearly meant to imply a shotgun-like weapon.

Also the flavor text for BLC is "the starfighter equivalent of a scattergun", in SWTOR scattergun = "Star Wars shotgun".

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.19.2014 , 02:22 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
Irrelevant. The developers clearly believe that the given statistics are thematically appropriate for a "shotgun"-type weapon. Their interpretation isn't facially ridiculous. Therefore it would be inconsistent with the developers' thematic vision to remove these statistics from BLC or to add them to other weapons. BLC or other weapons need to be adjusted in ways that don't challenge these themes.

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing, although I'll reject the premise that the 1%/degree tracking penalty is crippling on LLC.
Yes I agree that the theme of the BLC was certainly that of a space-borne scattergun. Though personally I think it was a poor decision to have one at all--shotguns and other insta-gib short-range weapons are very difficult to balance, and in general they ruin more multiplayer shooter games than they enrich (see Gears of War), since they turn everything into sprinting melee combat.

The BLC, as designed, is the perfect weapon for the Gunship to have as an emergency "get away from me!" defensive weapon. In that limited case, the BLC is balanced by the Gunship's limited ability to close on a target, and the BLC's wide angle viability works well with the Gunship's slow turning speed. On T1 Gunships, BLC's feel like excellently designed, situationally strong/weak components.

Unfortunately, for some godawful reason BioWare decided to put BLC's on a Scout, and soon they're putting it on a Gunship with Turning Thrusters and Interdiction Missiles. The latter they are forced to do, because not having BLC's on the "dogfighting" Gunship--while the sniper Gunship has them--would be ridiculous.

You can talk all you want about "themes", but I'm more concerned with balance and accessibility, and how that will affect the long-term health of GSF (if there is to be any). Clearly things have gotten out of hand if BLC is ALWAYS the best in slot choice for ships that can equip it. The only build that can choose a BLC but might not is a Quads+Pods build, which is for an entirely different (and I'd argue less versatile) mid-range playstyle. And I say that as someone who normally runs Q+P. When I occasionally switch to BLC's on my Republic Scout, I feel like all of a sudden I'm playing the game on easy-mode. Instead of having to line up a steady stream of quads/pods on someone (being careful not to wander too far off center because of tracking penalty), I instead just boost up to them, pplbttt--pplbttt--pplbttt and they're dead.

Meanwhile droves of new pilots try out GSF and then quit because they can't figure out why in the world their lasers don't seem to hit things, even when they are shooting at something within their firing arc. None of them know about Tracking Penalty, and if you tried to explain it to them, most of them would say, "Forget this."

As for LLC's, they are not a sensible weapon choice for anything but a Blackbolt, and even then I'd recommend a MLC/Pods build over LLC's. The short range + tracking penalty is just too restrictive for the weapon to feel good.

Personally, I think you could do away with the tracking penalty mechanic completely. If you want a weapon to only be viable in a narrow arc, then make its firing arc narrow. I understand tracking penalty is there to make accuracy-boosting more strategically interesting, but I feel like the price you pay (missing all the time when you feel like you shouldn't) is too high, especially when it comes to first impressions of inexperienced players.

And getting back to my specific request, I still feel like you could equalize the tracking penalty of BLC's, LLC's and Rapids without impugning the "theme" of BLC-as-shotgun. The BLC's rate of fire is so outlandishly low, compared to LLC or Rapid, that of course it feels very distinct. And it has natural crit. And it has a huge damage/range slope. And it has shield or armor piercing. Does it really need the exclusively best tracking penalty in the game for you to agree that it feels "shotgunny" enough? It could still have the widest firing arc--just nerf Rapids arc a bit as you decrease their tracking penalty and boom--BLC's are king of wide-angle shooting. But meanwhile Rapids and LLC's can actually make full use of the arcs that they do have--which they cannot right now, especially LLC's.

Wouldn't you like a wider variety of builds and choices? Wouldn't you like to have to think, even if for the briefest moment, about taking LLC's instead of BLC's on your Mangler or Sting? Wouldn't you like for Quells and Imperiums and Blackbolts and Bloodmarks and Bombers to actually have a viable short-range weapon that could compete with BLC's?

Or, if you are so dead-set against equalizing tracking penalty for the three short ranges weapons, how would you instead propose we fix them? Stuff is broken right now. If you don't like my suggestions, then fine. But saying, "No, BLC's need to have exclusively lowest tracking penalty because shotguns!" is a very limited outlook in my opinion. And personally I'm surprised that you of all people would prioritize maintaining flawed thematic/tropish decisions made months ago over correcting gross component balance and accessibility issues in the present. I've always thought you were more of a realist than that.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Ramalina's Avatar


Ramalina
05.19.2014 , 03:51 PM | #16
BLC tracking penalties are there for the players that need gear based crutches to be competitive in a dogfight.

Get an a strike, learn to fly, and you won't find that there's anything that bad about LLCs' firing arc. If you need practice gear up a Pike or Quell with proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, and heavy lasers and then start dueling Flashfires/Stings around bomber free satellites in domination games (you may have to server hop a bit to find bomber free satellites). When you can consistently land HLC shots at 1.5 km shooting from a strike with speed thrusters, then switch to anything with light lasers and it'll feel like using a grenade instead of a gun.

As far as the worthwhile blasters go LLCs are pretty good in the firing arc department. BLCs are the anomalous ones. They share the same design flaw that has plagued type 2 scouts and type 1 gunships since launch, they have attribute selections that have a bit too much stacking of advantages and not quite enough of paying with tradeoffs.

LLCs are probably fine, BLCs are not quite fine, but since they're designed for ease of use at close range I think mild nerfs to damage or indirect damage nerfs ( armor or shield piercing) would be more called for than an adjustment of tracking penalties.
"A padawan's master sets their Jedi trial, Rajivari set mine."
- Zhe Lian, Sage.

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tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
05.19.2014 , 03:54 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Ramalina View Post
BLC tracking penalties are there for the players that need gear based crutches to be competitive in a dogfight.

Get an a strike, learn to fly, and you won't find that there's anything that bad about LLCs' firing arc. If you need practice gear up a Pike or Quell with proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, and heavy lasers and then start dueling Flashfires/Stings around bomber free satellites in domination games (you may have to server hop a bit to find bomber free satellites). When you can consistently land HLC shots at 1.5 km shooting from a strike with speed thrusters, then switch to anything with light lasers and it'll feel like using a grenade instead of a gun.

As far as the worthwhile blasters go LLCs are pretty good in the firing arc department. BLCs are the anomalous ones. They share the same design flaw that has plagued type 2 scouts and type 1 gunships since launch, they have attribute selections that have a bit too much stacking of advantages and not quite enough of paying with tradeoffs.

LLCs are probably fine, BLCs are not quite fine, but since they're designed for ease of use at close range I think mild nerfs to damage or indirect damage nerfs ( armor or shield piercing) would be more called for than an adjustment of tracking penalties.
Actually if they really want to stick with the "shotgun' theme they just need to drop its max range from 4k to 3k and the damage and accuracy it has at 4k it would now have at 3k scaling the same.... thus at 500 it would act like it does at 1500 or at 2k it would be same as 3k right now.... but honestly I dont know why we talk about what should be... its not going to be.... so there is that.

Nemarus's Avatar


Nemarus
05.19.2014 , 04:22 PM | #18
I think a big reason why shotguns do not work so well in GSF is because it is very difficult to stop someone (especially a Scout) from approaching you.

In Halo, if you are running at me with a shotgun, and I have an assault rifle, I will drop you well before you get into range, no matter how well you juke and jump. Additionally, as you're running toward me, I can backpeddle to give myself more time--something you can't do in GSF. Plus in most game types the shotgun is a power weapon that spawns on the map--which means not everyone can have one at once.

In Call of Duty or Titanfall, most weapons kill in one or two hits, meaning running around with a shotgun is really only useful in close quarters combat. Using one in open space is suicide.

In those two games, shotguns are well-balanced.

Compare this with Gears of War, where everyone starts with an assault rifle and a shotgun. In Gears of War single player game, it's all about using mid- and long-range weapons from cover, with shotguns being reserved for hordes of small and fast melee enemies. But in multiplayer, it's all about shotgun-rolling. By rolling continuously, you close distances far too fast for mid- and long-range weapons to get a sustained bead on you. You roll right up to someone's face and shotgun them once or twice to kill them. Eventually everyone is shottie-rollin'. That's not to say that type of gameplay doesn't involve a skillset of its own ... but it completely invalidates the core of the rest of the game, and it makes many other weapons irrelevant.

BLC's have the same impact in GSF, I feel. In GSF, a Scout can easily and rapidly close the distance from 7000m to < 3000m. As long as they don't fly precisely head-on in a joust, they'll be very hard to hit--certainly almost impossible to kill outright--before they get into short-range combat. And that's just with mildly evasive flying--to say nothing of Distortion Field. Once they close to short range, their BLC will own any other weapon, and no matter what the non-Scout does, they won't be able to put distance between themselves and the BLC's.

In BLC's were only found on Type 1 Gunships, this wouldn't be an issue, since the Gunship would have a hard time keeping close to a target that doesn't want to be close to it. For a Gunship, they are a primarily defensive weapon.
Shayd / Callem / RK-4X / "Trynt" - Leader of <Eclipse Squadron>, The Ebon Hawk
http://EclipseSquadron.enjin.com Imperial GSF-focused guild

"Serve the Emperor above all others."

Gavin_Kelvar's Avatar


Gavin_Kelvar
05.19.2014 , 04:37 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Nemarus View Post
BLC's have the same impact in GSF, I feel. In GSF, a Scout can easily and rapidly close the distance from 7000m to < 3000m. As long as they don't fly precisely head-on in a joust, they'll be very hard to hit--certainly almost impossible to kill outright--before they get into short-range combat. And that's just with mildly evasive flying--to say nothing of Distortion Field. Once they close to short range, their BLC will own any other weapon, and no matter what the non-Scout does, they won't be able to put distance between themselves and the BLC's.

In BLC's were only found on Type 1 Gunships, this wouldn't be an issue, since the Gunship would have a hard time keeping close to a target that doesn't want to be close to it. For a Gunship, they are a primarily defensive weapon.
Even in a head on joust a scout can rapidly close the distance on a striker and evasion can help mitigate the range advantage a striker's lasers briefly have. That's one of the contributing factors I think to BLCs on scouts - they have evasion that reduces the probability of getting gunned down before they close the gap.

In that regard I can see an argument being made for eliminating tracking penalties. For sustained DPS weapons (namely everything other than BLCs) it would improve their ability to gun down a scout before they can close to BLC range which would create shotgun balance you find in Halo or COD.
Aodhán Guilhem
Republic Strike Fighter Pilot
Jedi Covenant

Sidenti's Avatar


Sidenti
05.19.2014 , 07:41 PM | #20
From what I understand, Jimmy McMillan agrees with you.

I have no opinion because when I fly anymore, it's usually heavy ion cannon with a side of HLC. -bp