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Please Bioware: Add some incentive to get people to queue for Flashpoints.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Please Bioware: Add some incentive to get people to queue for Flashpoints.

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
05.12.2014 , 10:44 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by tharbison View Post
I don't think I'd want the tank to tell me their rotation before every fight. I can understand that creating frustration - as a tank, you know your pull strategy. Just execute it.

Before a boss fight, depending on difficulty when I tank I may share my pull strategy/pro tips for that specific fight during the opening monologue. That's about it. Otherwise, get on with it
Unfortunately tank's/healer's job isn't that simple.

Healer must know the mechanics so it's important to tell them before the fight if healer is new. They must know when to Cleanse, they need to know who is going to take damage next ("dps stands in bad stuff, better throw a heal or two").
Tank must be aware of any patrolling mobs before and during the pull (you need to grab that mob before it attacks anyone else, usually the healer), they must know all the shortcuts, they must know how to position themselves so that other group members (especially healer) don't take damage, they must know CC capabilities of every class in group and how/when to utilize it.

Yeah, it's not just "Go, go, go, kill, kill, kill".

Quote: Originally Posted by ScarletBlaze View Post
(1) There is an achievement for the heroics on each planet. Some people may want the achievments.

(2) Some people can do the heroic 2 with just them and a companion so they do it since it is right there.
I just noticed achievement yesterday. Now I want to get those. Gives me more thing to do. H2s are also a lot of fun if you do them solo. If you're leveling as tank you'll never have too many comms.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.12.2014 , 10:59 PM | #72
There are three things they could do to boost participation IMO.

1) Solo (training) mode for flashpoints.

Much easier version of each flashpoint with standard world rewards that can be done only by solo players. Easy way to learn the layout and strategies beforehand. Rewards would range from pathetic to non existent.

2) Boost events for Healers and Tanks.

A boost would be applied, based on a systemwide announcement if que levels are low, that for X amount of time a boost will be applied to healers and/or tanks. The boost for tanks could be total health perhaps, for healers it could be more resource. Damage mitigation is another idea. Either way it makes the job easier for tanks and healers to promote them to que.

3) Suspend decay on equipment from damage/death

Again, an event that could be announced systemwide for X amount of time for specific flashpoints that would suspend decay on equipment from damage/health, making it much less prohibitive to run the flashpoint.

Finally, they could boost experience, com or alignment payout for flashpoints that are underutilized.

ekwalizer's Avatar


ekwalizer
05.12.2014 , 11:27 PM | #73
Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
There are three things they could do to boost participation IMO.

1) Solo (training) mode for flashpoints.

Much easier version of each flashpoint with standard world rewards that can be done only by solo players. Easy way to learn the layout and strategies beforehand. Rewards would range from pathetic to non existent.

2) Boost events for Healers and Tanks.

A boost would be applied, based on a systemwide announcement if que levels are low, that for X amount of time a boost will be applied to healers and/or tanks. The boost for tanks could be total health perhaps, for healers it could be more resource. Damage mitigation is another idea. Either way it makes the job easier for tanks and healers to promote them to que.

3) Suspend decay on equipment from damage/death

Again, an event that could be announced systemwide for X amount of time for specific flashpoints that would suspend decay on equipment from damage/health, making it much less prohibitive to run the flashpoint.

Finally, they could boost experience, com or alignment payout for flashpoints that are underutilized.
#1 would require the same type of "ground up" redesign of all the FPs which the Devs have stated that they didn't want to do in order to port them over to TFPs.

#2. The system would *have* to be able to differentiate between trees. Otherwise, (example) I could queue my PT as Tank and just stay DPS spec'd. Gaining the benefit of an easier FP experience (for myself).
It would also have to have some type of OnHeartBeat check to verify the boosted toons didn't Respec trees after they entered the instance. The TFPs are lagtastic enough as it is, adding more layers of code on top of them will not help that problem either.

#3 I can only speak for myself, but repair bills are not what keeps me from queuing my tanks. The players who cause the repair bills are what keeps me from queuing my tanks.

Kulyok's Avatar


Kulyok
05.13.2014 , 12:19 AM | #74
I'm not very experienced with flashpoints(played flashpoint each once or twice, all my alts are DPS), but I'm wondering - is it true that KDY usually gives you a level and a half, maybe even two, and regular flashpoints give little XP(like two or three quests - but you could complete five regular quests in the time it takes you to complete a flashpoint)? I mean, even with Emerging Conflicts and Weekly: Searching for Allies you don't get a lot of XP from Athiss or Foundry, do you?
Free subscription for 7 days, extra inventory tab and more through Friends of SWTOR program, my link: http://www.swtor.com/r/kvLxZh

slafko's Avatar


slafko
05.13.2014 , 12:53 AM | #75
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
Unfortunately tank's/healer's job isn't that simple.

Healer must know the mechanics so it's important to tell them before the fight if healer is new. They must know when to Cleanse, they need to know who is going to take damage next ("dps stands in bad stuff, better throw a heal or two").
Wrong. DPS stands in bad stuff = they can either use their defensive cooldown, pop a medpack, move out and remember not to stand in bad stuff again.
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
Tank must be aware of any patrolling mobs before and during the pull (you need to grab that mob before it attacks anyone else, usually the healer),
Wrong. Everyone should be paying attention and have some situational awareness. If you're too dumb to move out of the way of a giant patrolling droid with a golden star on its head - you *really* need to start paying attention and using your WASD to move.
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
... they must know all the shortcuts, they must know how to position themselves so that other group members (especially healer) don't take damage, they must know CC capabilities of every class in group and how/when to utilize it.
Agreed on this.

The shortcuts part is a bit tricky though. I know the shortcuts but refuse to use some of them. Most notable example: Czerka FP and jumping down the staircase. I find the strategy pointless and actually slower than killing mobs. Funny things happen when the derps decide not to follow my tank and jump down into the pool.

Other shortcuts I personally love and they include me using soft CC and sneaking by. What most players do on those shortcuts is either aggroing the un-CC'd mobs by not hugging the wall or watching their distance or outright engaging the group because "we can't sneak past, not everyone has stealth, noob". This things are L2P issues and make a difference between a player and a good player but they haven't changed a bit in over two years so I've practically given up on stealth CC's. No one pays attention and most of them don't have a clue.

KDY mentality FTL.
I see their R2 droid and I grab it. No, you can't have it back, silly rabbit!

Fidelicatessen's Avatar


Fidelicatessen
05.13.2014 , 03:29 AM | #76
I play a lot of tanks and healers. ******s SUCK. This makes queueing for random FPs with random pickup groups a craps shoot.

TFPs are only exacerbating the problem, making me less and less likely to queue for a random FP using GF when playing one of my main tanks or healers.

Here's what TFPs will bring us within 6 months: groups of idiot derps playing TFPs, wiping repeatedly (with huge queue times if they try to line up for a real FP), and decent groups of friends with trinity groups running the harder ****, exploiting the **** out of GF as they do it (I still get rewards for using GF even if I am already in a 4-man group).

Torresman's Avatar


Torresman
05.13.2014 , 03:33 AM | #77
Quote: Originally Posted by ekwalizer View Post
It is actually the strongest argument for the root of your thread: DPS Queue time.

If one DPS played as a tank or Healer then that is -1DPS and +1Tank/Healer in the queue. But there are not that many people that play the game from all three angles anymore. We are seeing now an entire "generation" of DPS that only know how to DPS (or play the game in general) as it relates to TFPs.

Since we're comparing resumes, at 55 I have (pure tanks):
1x Jug, 1x Guardian, 1x Shadow, 1x Assassin and 1x Powertech (I also have a level 50 VG)
For dedicated Healers I have at 55:
1x Sorc, 1x Op 1x Commando and 1x Merc. (But I have a total of 4x Mercs at 55 and I change spec to suit the needs of the group - which means they are 98% of the time Healers).
I also have a Sent, Mara, Sling and Sniper at 55, but I never play these DPS role only toons.

So, while I don't have *every* tank and healer at 55, I feel like I have enough of a grasp on the situation to recommend to the average DPS player that they should roll a harder role if they want shorter times in the queue. Maybe do something to enhance the community and improve their experience rather than complain about their lot in life.

The "problems" you identify are not solvable by cross-server and/or any combination of your action items. Will it help? Who knows? Perhaps, to a point. But what incentive is there at 55 for a Tank to queue for any FP? Farming Iso-5?

Opening up cross-server queues *will* (without question) add to the pool of available DPS. The reality is, most tanks (and you should know this since you have them all) don't queue. If you target incentives at the "tank" population it *will* be abused by DPS in the same AC as the corresponding tank. Y0u still won't have actual tanks, you'll have a DPS that queued as a tank/DPS who is now getting more of a reward than say the sniper in your group simply because he has a tank tree assigned to him.

Next, cross-server queuing throws community accountability right out the window.
Ignore List: The ignore list on my tanks are a mile long because I consolidate them periodically. But how can I ignore someone on a different server to ensure that I never get GFd with them again? Can't be done.
Ninjas: With no community accountability Ninja'ing will skyrocket and you have no option to publicly shame them or again, ignore them.

The issues with the GF system, cannot be "fixed" by software designers. They are human issues. The GF itself isn't what keeps Tanks from queuing, it is the lunk-heads that you get grouped with.

Wasn't really trying to brag, merely stating that I as well know the horrors of tanking/healing GF in this game. I'd also have to disagree to some extent your point about cross server queues ruining senses of accountability for a server. The way MMOs have evolved, the games have become so casual that a sense of community that may have existed in older MMOs in their heyday is gone. Now you may have a few people you recognize on your server every now and then but tell me, do the majority of players (as it stands right now) even remember the names of the baddies they've grouped with after let's say...24 hours?

I'll answer that for you. No. Not unless someone has a name like Darth Vadorr or something that stands out. Hell you or I might but I guarantee you most don't. Not trying to start a fight but just pointing that out.

After some contemplation I do agree however that cross realm is certainly not the preferred option as ratios of tank to DPS or healer to DPS are pretty similar on every server.

Lastly. I'd have to ask, and this is really a question to everyone: where are you guys playing that "most" or even a large portion of your DPS are morons that charge into everything without waiting for the tank. Not saying it doesnt happen but IME its way less than even 20% of the time.

Thank you all for reading my post and reading this gigantic comment and may the force be with you.
May the F = ma be with you.

LordArtemis's Avatar


LordArtemis
05.13.2014 , 03:43 AM | #78
Seems like some folks are indicating the problem is players. I am sure to some folks that play quite a bit that is a problem. The problem, I would assume from the OP, is that the folks that are represented here as the ones against changes that bring in new players are the very players that the OP is not speaking of. Naturally I could be completely off base here.

There is no fix, IMO, for what ails you. In fact, a fix would make it worse for you, not better. So this is perhaps not applicable to you.

It would be applicable to those folks that do not play instances for the following reasons, I would imagine....

1) Folks that do not like the cost of dying or heavy damage, which tends to happen often in flashpoints (or at least it is perceived that way).

2) Folks that do not wish to que because they find it too difficult to either tank or heal the way the flashpoints are designed.

These folks tend to form pugs from chat or premades, if at all.

If, and that is a big if, there is an issue with Flashpoints being underutilized and folks not queing, then adding buffs might help. They seemed to DRASTICALLY help PVP utilization.

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
05.13.2014 , 04:20 AM | #79
Quote: Originally Posted by slafko View Post
Wrong. Everyone should be paying attention and have some situational awareness. If you're too dumb to move out of the way of a giant patrolling droid with a golden star on its head - you *really* need to start paying attention and using your WASD to move.
What you're saying is that "tanks are slow, simple people", right?

Quote: Originally Posted by LordArtemis View Post
1) Folks that do not like the cost of dying or heavy damage, which tends to happen often in flashpoints (or at least it is perceived that way).

2) Folks that do not wish to que because they find it too difficult to either tank or heal the way the flashpoints are designed.
These aren't really the problem. Problem is "tank/healer must know exactly what they are doing" elitism.
- Forget to cleanse at the right time and you'll most likely be votekicked
- Let one dps die during boss fight and you'll most likely be votekicked
- Don't even think about losing aggro on one (1) standard mob... do it once and dps starts to mock you, do it twice and you're very close to be votekicked.

ekwalizer's Avatar


ekwalizer
05.13.2014 , 04:25 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Torresman View Post
I'd also have to disagree to some extent your point about cross server queues ruining senses of accountability for a server. The way MMOs have evolved, the games have become so casual that a sense of community that may have existed in older MMOs in their heyday is gone.
We'll just have to disagree on that matter. I can't think of a single game that allows it, where it doesn't create more butt-hurt than it was intended to solve. I do get what you are saying about the state of the community as it stands though. I personally wouldn't attribute that to "casual" anything but more to a population size issue. The older games were, for the most part, smaller games in terms of both player base and sheer size.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torresman View Post
Now you may have a few people you recognize on your server every now and then but tell me, do the majority of players (as it stands right now) even remember the names of the baddies they've grouped with after let's say...24 hours?

I'll answer that for you. No. Not unless someone has a name like Darth Vadorr or something that stands out. Hell you or I might but I guarantee you most don't. Not trying to start a fight but just pointing that out.
I don't remember any of them because they go on my /ignore list immediately thereafter and I consolidate the list amongst my toons periodically. I remember their actions, but names? No.

Quote: Originally Posted by Torresman View Post
Lastly. I'd have to ask, and this is really a question to everyone: where are you guys playing that "most" or even a large portion of your DPS are morons that charge into everything without waiting for the tank. Not saying it doesnt happen but IME its way less than even 20% of the time.
I mainly play imperial on Jedi Covenant. DPS stupidity is rampant even at level 50+. I can't think of a single time in months that I have done any non-Operation group content where a DPS (or even healer) Sorc or DPS Sin hasn't ruined 75% of Death from Above / Orbital Strike because they just *have* to use Overload every time it comes off cool down. I can't remember the last time I was in a FP, with a tank present, where a DPS Jug or Mara didn't initiate like EVERY fight.

So after dealing with these antics for a month or two on various tanks; lodging my complaints with the other players only to be told "who care's this is SM/easy" - I opted to just stop supporting their game-play on my tanks.
I still see the same behavior on my healers every single day though. Nothing has changed. The only difference is, on my healers, I can hang back and sling green "stuff" at the group and basically disengage from the actual fight. Just heal, cleanse and try not to concern myself with who kicked it. That said, when I continually notice a DPS initiating while a tank is in the group, I stop healing them.

I'm not hating on DPSers. My main is a PyroMerc, and I have 3 other full spec Mercs on JC. I end up healing a lot more than DPSing, but I would prefer to just DPS. I'm certainly not saying all DPSers are bads, but the good ones are in short supply.

If it was one FP a day spread across any 5 of my toons (20%), I could write that off as a random bad - but it isn't. it is a lot closer to every FP.