Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

On the Limitations of SW: TOR's Class-Design vs. Tactical Flashpoints

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
On the Limitations of SW: TOR's Class-Design vs. Tactical Flashpoints

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.12.2014 , 04:26 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by midianlord View Post
See my sig.

I've never felt the urge to play a tank. I don't dislike them or the role, it's just not my thing. Why should I feel like i'm being forced to?
You may feel like your being forced to, but you aren't actually.

Most people never feel the urge to play a tank. Therefore, their queue times are longer for a trinity-based encounter. It's just a fact of life. The people that are making you wait for a pop are all the other players that feel the same way as you.

midianlord's Avatar


midianlord
05.12.2014 , 05:59 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
You may feel like your being forced to, but you aren't actually.

Most people never feel the urge to play a tank. Therefore, their queue times are longer for a trinity-based encounter. It's just a fact of life. The people that are making you wait for a pop are all the other players that feel the same way as you.

There's another side to that:

What incentive is there for more people to want to tank at endgame?

Tanks should at the very least, IMO:

Have comms-available gear much better stat-budgeted than the crap that's currently available (the healer and/or damager gear is at least "serviceable," and not too hard to make quite a bit better. The tanker gear is utterly abysmal in every way, or so I'm told. That needs looking at.).

Have increased rewards for tanking in GF compared to damagers, and possibly healers. Also unique/cool stuff that's only available for them in that role, based on a GF check that scores off their talent trees. (Sorry, full-tree damagers in tank-stance with shields don't qualify. You want the shinies, you have to be a real tank.)

As for "just roll a tank bro:"

Sorry, no -- dealing with it like that is not "incentive," it's punishment for trying to work around a fundamentally bad situation.
Guys/Gals, could you please start queuing for real Flashpoints again?

r/DPS 4 life

Spoiler

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.12.2014 , 06:21 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by midianlord View Post
The tanker gear is utterly abysmal in every way, or so I'm told. That needs looking at.).
Certainly not going to argue with you on this one!

As for the rest, I don't have enough experiences with MMOs to know if giving better rewards for tank players is a good idea or a bad idea. Has something like this been tried before? Did it work?

It seems to me that people play the roles that they enjoy. Some people like tanking. Would you play a class in this game that you didn't enjoy, simply because it had better rewards?

thewitchdoctor's Avatar


thewitchdoctor
05.12.2014 , 06:32 PM | #24
It has been my (limited) MMO experience: Vanilla WoW, up-to-post-Moria LOTRO, and TOR since prelaunch, that tanks are always (publicly) the rarest. The random abuse from PUG-know-it-alls is my main suspicion. It is the number one reason why my Assassin rarely tanks outside a guild group, at least. Vanilla WoW put a very high price tag on tanks repairs bills, as I recall.

I do not think better rewards would fix the 'problem.' Gear is already stupidly easy to get in this game - for whatever type of stuff you do. I.E., even though comm-bought gear is 'so much worse' than token-dropped gear, that's only (superficially) true for HM/NiM ops. It is bloody overkill for all other PVE and it is easy enough to get as it is.

No, I think the issue is the trinity itself. But, funny enough, I like the trinity. And it is my second-hand information that in the latest game to 'remove' the trinity, GW2, the player-base has taken upon itself to demand roles from groupmates. So, if true, that is pretty telling.

TFPs have their place. A few posters on page 2 seemed to have completely missed the point. But the solution is a hard one to nail down. The trinity isn't 'wrong' and neither are TFPs 'bad.' The OP was pointing out that the two don't necessarily mix perfectly. And I agree with that assessment.
Good. Bad. I'm the twi'lek with the saber.
Active: 55 Marauder - 55 Powertech - 55 Guardian
Leveling: Sorcerer
Inactive: 55 Assassin

midianlord's Avatar


midianlord
05.13.2014 , 02:42 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by thewitchdoctor View Post
[...]

No, I think the issue is the trinity itself. But, funny enough, I like the trinity. And it is my second-hand information that in the latest game to 'remove' the trinity, GW2, the player-base has taken upon itself to demand roles from groupmates. So, if true, that is pretty telling.

TFPs have their place. A few posters on page 2 seemed to have completely missed the point. But the solution is a hard one to nail down. The trinity isn't 'wrong' and neither are TFPs 'bad.' The OP was pointing out that the two don't necessarily mix perfectly. And I agree with that assessment.
And ^^that^^ too. (Again, thank you )

Hmmmm...

...

Consider:

Defense Rating.

Although in all practical terms, healers and damagers don't want it in their slots, it is still at least of theoretical benefit to all classes --Pyro Merc even gets a talent that increases it by 2%, (melée/ranged defense), Sorc/Sage has a native 10% compared to the heavier-armour wearers at 5%, and Snipingers get +20% ranged defense in crouch/cover (Sharpshooter/marksmanship also has a talent that maintains it for a few seconds when you leave crouch/cover)-- whereas Shield/Absorption is for true tanks/off-tanks only.

It would seem, from these examples, that someone at EA/Bio clearly intended non-tanks to make use of Defense Rating in at least a basic sense, sooo....

...

So why not have an extra mod-slot in gear that --for this hypothetical new type of mod only, no other mods can go in here-- takes a special type of mod that increases overall defense rating --by quite a bit, not just a few points-- that, if used, increases Defense chance at the cost of....hmmm....let's say mainstat, as that is the most broadly beneficial to healers and damagers. (Possibly at the cost of Power and/or Crit Rating, too?)

Non-consumable, (I'll have to check, but I believe there are Adrenals that do something like this, but those only last 15 seconds...besides, who uses the non-damage-boosting Adrenals? Those have a very long cooldown, at any rate) fairly easy to craft/source, not too expensive to take in and out, so for certain situations, you can increase your "tankiness" at the cost of DPS/HPS, but when that situation is over, just rip 'em out quick, restoring your "real" stats to where they were, and go back to nuking or healing at full capacity?

Yes, absurdly over-geared people will no doubt use that to solo stuff that's not officially solo'able even more easily, though it would probably take them longer to kill stuff --example, the big droid with the now-working-correctly little adds that now hit really bloody hard from full range even in normal mode-- but let's not kid ourselves, that ship has looooooong since sailed.

Thoughts?

E:

To keep the discussion simple, and to avoid any potential balancing nightmares: These mods would not work in PvP areas, but would work in OWPvP. Again, a lot like the high-end Adrenals in that sense.
Guys/Gals, could you please start queuing for real Flashpoints again?

r/DPS 4 life

Spoiler

DawnAskham's Avatar


DawnAskham
05.13.2014 , 04:10 PM | #26
Tactical FPs do have a few design 'flaws', though I don't think requiring the trinity is the solution.

A few changes I'd make:

Spread boss damage more evenly across the group.

These are not designed to have a dedicated tank, and thus just because someone has agro, doesn't mean they should eat the majority of damage (though leave in avoidable damage mechanics - nothing wrong with bads being penalized for standing in laser beams).

Tweak the kolto tanks a bit, maybe reduce the direct heal for clicking the boxes and spread the total heal more evenly among the players in the group.

Alternatively, provide the direct heal / larger heal from the tank to the player with agro or the player with the lowest HP, not the person who clicked the tank.

Fix the collision / hit box issues which make it difficult to click the kolto tanks when the boss is near.

Re-balance the bosses in the current tacticals such that the TTK and overall damage profiles are similar at 55.

Some of the bosses (the meltdown beasts) seem to take forever to kill while doing high damage while other bosses seem to take a moderate amount of time to kill and do mostly avoidable damage (independent of group gear / skill).

The end bosses in the new FPs seem to be pretty well balanced with reasonable damage, most higher damage totally avoidable, and a moderate TTK.

Lastly, balance the rewards for the 55 Tactical FPs.

I auto-drop KDY at 55 as the FP is a waste of time for the rewards of Planetary Comms, low credits, no crafting mats, and no gear drops.

The Czerka FPs have a specific weekly mission, drop reasonable credits, provide Basic Comms (trade for Isotope), drop gear (companion or 53 alts), and have a chance at crafting materials.

The new FPs drop reasonable credits, provide Basic Comms (trade for Isotope), drop gear, and have a chance at crafting mats, pets, and speeders.

cxten's Avatar


cxten
05.13.2014 , 04:25 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by midianlord View Post
In the specific fights I mentioned --Duneclaw and Enhanced Vrrrrblithingy in Czerka Core Meltdown-- you have to have them right on top of the generators or spore-pop things, where you get to find that the client often won't let you click the koltos because it thinks you're trying to target the boss --even though I already have him targetted.

It's a hit-box/collision-detection issue, (I think? Correct me if I'm wrong, not my area of expertise) and also really annoying. Better to have someone a bit "out of the way" --with respect to how much crap is filling their screen at once-- at a Kolto-station who can click it right away, IME.
Right, if you have the boss's hit box on top of the kolto station, you'll just be clicking on the boss, which won't work.

The suggestion to use the kolto stations as often as you can wasn't a statement that having others do it wouldn't work or be as good or better. It was more a "take your fate in your own hands" sort of suggestion, if your group mates are not to be trusted.

The kolto tanks are good enough and plentiful enough that if you use them as often as you can, you'll have no trouble taking the damage.

With the duneclaw, say, if you're having trouble with him being on top of it, I suppose you could click it just after his rampage, as you leave (so he's a bit further away).

-----

To be fair, positioning the boss like this and planning on when to click the kolto stations etc is a tanking behavior (same goes for my next little story below), so if you're saying you aren't interested in tanking, I can understand not liking doing this sort of thing.

-----

My enjoyment of the kolto stations: Some of the bosses are pretty fun to tank as a dps without a healer. For example, the jedi/sith boss in KDY. He does a knockback, so I like to position myself to get knocked into the kolto station on one side of the room. Then click it. Then move back toward the middle of the room and position myself to get knocked into the other kolto station. Rinse & repeat.

(As I said, this is really a lot of tanking behavior.)

BobFredJohn's Avatar


BobFredJohn
05.14.2014 , 02:14 AM | #28
IMO the whole point of tacticals is to allow DPS to get their basic gear easier. The problem with needing a heal and tank like in FP is they arent common. changing TFP so they NEED a tank and healer completely defeats the point.

If your struggling with running tacticals with dps then do different missions, farm some money and buy better mods. (bear in mind you have heavy armour and your own heals, my past few runs of czerka labs a sniper with 168 gear was carrying most of the tanking, with 2 other snipers and mara in the group, yet the "tanking" sniper didnt die).

Plus why are you running TFP at 168 gear? go do some ops

Thirdly, you said yourself your mods are vaguely right, well why not get the right ones to dish out more damage and help your group out DPS the bosses (as happened in the above stated run with 3 snipers and mara).

Final point: each of the boss fights have kolto's, why not use them? and if your dieing against the mob groups with 168 gear your probably attacking before your group is with you to support you, are you prehaps 1 of those people that runs on ahead, start a fight you cant win then moan the enemies are too strong?
Imp: Vehird - Edekzun - Zathar - Sketkhit

Rep: Arraken - Nemida - Xiannagne - Jutwor

midianlord's Avatar


midianlord
05.14.2014 , 11:30 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by BobFredJohn View Post
IMO the whole point of tacticals is to allow DPS to get their basic gear easier. The problem with needing a heal and tank like in FP is they arent common. changing TFP so they NEED a tank and healer completely defeats the point.

If your struggling with running tacticals with dps then do different missions, farm some money and buy better mods. (bear in mind you have heavy armour and your own heals, my past few runs of czerka labs a sniper with 168 gear was carrying most of the tanking, with 2 other snipers and mara in the group, yet the "tanking" sniper didnt die).

Plus why are you running TFP at 168 gear? go do some ops

Thirdly, you said yourself your mods are vaguely right, well why not get the right ones to dish out more damage and help your group out DPS the bosses (as happened in the above stated run with 3 snipers and mara).

Final point: each of the boss fights have kolto's, why not use them? and if your dieing against the mob groups with 168 gear your probably attacking before your group is with you to support you, are you prehaps 1 of those people that runs on ahead, start a fight you cant win then moan the enemies are too strong?
Christ.

Read the thread, for ****'s sake :/

I need the FPs for the [WEEKLY].

I have few problems face-tanking these guys on my Arsenal Mercs, and on my Snipingers (piss-easy in middle-tree), as those have much more bake-in defensibility than Pyro.

And I explained about the odd kolto-clicky situation.

...

On second thought, **** it.

2/10.

Next!

E:

It's "you're dying," by the way.
Guys/Gals, could you please start queuing for real Flashpoints again?

r/DPS 4 life

Spoiler

BobFredJohn's Avatar


BobFredJohn
05.14.2014 , 01:20 PM | #30
^^ so like i said, TFP is for DPS who would otherwise have to wait ages for trinity group in normal FP's, your idea to change TFP into standard FP's COMPLETELY defeats the point of them.

If you cant hack them, dont do them. saying "I need them for the weekly" do KDY then, as with 168 gear your obviously not collecting basic comms, your just gathering the elite comms from the weekly, runs of KDY will increase the 5 TFP runs counter (i also found korriban incursion is extremely easy (easier than KDY IMO).

If you had read properly you may also have noticed I mentioned that most other people with 168 gear that I have met in TFP have very little difficulty. Learn your cycles, learn your boss tacts and just because you are specced DPS does not mean you cannot pop the odd few heals when things get desperate.

Quote:
And I explained about the odd kolto-clicky situation
I believe the ability for merc is called "powered over-rides" or "hydraulic overrides." This ability allows you to move faster (30%) if the boss is on you and its hit box covers the kolto, when you first run towards the sand storm generators, pop the over-rides ability so you get there before him giving you a chance to click it. (I cant believe I have to explain this to someone with 168 gear, you should have a basic understanding of how to overcome small problems like that by now.)

btw, please read the 4th and 5th lines you wrote and reconsider the grammer nazi comment at the bottom.
Imp: Vehird - Edekzun - Zathar - Sketkhit

Rep: Arraken - Nemida - Xiannagne - Jutwor