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Why Bowdaar?!


Darkelefantos's Avatar


Darkelefantos
05.10.2014 , 03:05 PM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Wylf View Post
You know, the Sith code is kinda funny, since it never actually talks about negative emotions. So... if you're really, really passionate about painting... could you be a Sith Lord Artist?
Only if you paint your paintings with blood, because peace is a lie, which has to be expressed in the paintings.
This place has been an empty wasteland for a long time. No longer.

"In a world without gold, we might've been heroes!"

Wylf's Avatar


Wylf
05.10.2014 , 03:06 PM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkelefantos View Post
Only if you paint your paintings with blood, because peace is a lie, which has to be expressed in the paintings.
Please, the tormented artist is so cliche, it's become an archetype. No blood needed, the lack of peace is already in the person ;p

Time to create Darth Paincasso, the Sith painter. Or something like that. So many character concepts, so little time!
'Twas right, said they, such birds to slay
that bring the fog and mist

The Mitharr Legacy - Way too many characters to name here.
EU - The Progenitor

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
05.10.2014 , 03:08 PM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Wylf View Post
Please, the tormented artist is so cliche, it's become an archetype. No blood needed, the lack of peace is already in the person ;p

Time to create Darth Paincasso, the Sith painter. Or something like that. So many character concepts, so little time!
If you check my previous post, there's a very important Sith who aims to be an artist.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showp...4&postcount=50

Wylf's Avatar


Wylf
05.10.2014 , 03:09 PM | #54
Yeah, I saw. But since it's full of spoilers I chose not to address it further!
'Twas right, said they, such birds to slay
that bring the fog and mist

The Mitharr Legacy - Way too many characters to name here.
EU - The Progenitor

Darth_Wicked's Avatar


Darth_Wicked
05.10.2014 , 03:09 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Wylf View Post
Yeah, I saw. But since it's full of spoilers I chose not to address it further!
I'm sad.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
05.10.2014 , 03:37 PM | #56
Quote:
There's factual evidence to back up the fact that voice acting isn't expensive. You said it was expensive, which was a flat out lie.
It is not a lie. Bio said it is not as expensive as people would think, but it is still expensive. Besides extra voice-work there is additional coding and setting up the new lines. There is testing of those dialogues to see that the breakage does not occur. I do not think you are in a better position to judge than I am what is financially more sustainable - new dialogues or character customizations.

However, after release, Bioware did not add new dialogues to the existing companions, yet it continued to add customizations for them. I also recall hearing that Bio flat out said 'no new content for the existing companions'. So, as much as I would want dialogue load to increase, asking for smaller concessions to an individual player taste sounds a bit less hopeless.

I love a lot of things in the game, just want added zest of full flexibility, player-driven (the best and the most expensive) to Bio-driven species cosmetic changes, to finally what they were doing already (slapping together new faces) ...

I am not sure why you chose to be aggressive like that, and attempt to discredit something I am asking for for the sake of something else I would not mind. If Bio chooses to do either, great. Most likely - neither, but I dunno, I feel that customizations without touching existing content may have a better shot, and for me, it would be an awesome improvement.

I do not presume to speak for other players, I speak for myself, and I really-really-really want to change a lot of male romanceable companions into different species. For me that would add the "Galaxy far-gar-away" feel to my games. So, when I see work similar to what I want done, but not quite what I want... i feel compelled to complain, seeing that even the PvP crowd does that (which I naively thought gets most of those updates).

Darth-Obvious's Avatar


Darth-Obvious
05.10.2014 , 06:15 PM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by DomiSotto View Post
It is not a lie. Bio said it is not as expensive as people would think,
No, Ohlen said it's not expensive.

Paying actors per session is expensive.

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but it is still expensive.
For you it would seem expensive, but once again it's not all about you.

TOR cost somewhere between 100 to 300 million dollars all said and done. The voice acting was not the expensive part.

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Besides extra voice-work there is additional coding and setting up the new lines. There is testing of those dialogues to see that the breakage does not occur.
Nope, try again.

You're literally swapping out audio files or over writing existing ones. It's not as complicated as you're trying to make it out to be.

- Having a companion recognize as a romance is a checkbox. Not difficult to do.

- If the dialogue has been recorded you're converting the sound file to whatever audio file(s) the game uses. Not difficult to do.

- Adding the new line of dialogue to the existing conversations is as simple as overwriting a file. For instance "Aric Conversation 6 - Player Choice 2 - Player Selection 2" <-that's the file you'd be overwriting. Not difficult to do.

- The text from dialogue wheel would need to be changed from "Tell Me More" to "I Like That [Flirt]" which is simply changing the text in a box and saving it. Not difficult to do.

They wouldn't be adding a 4th dialogue option to the 3 choice wheel they would be replacing an existing line with a new Flirt/Romance line. This means that specific original line would be lost but that's not really an issue given the trade off.

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I do not think you are in a better position to judge than I am what is financially more sustainable
Except that between the two of us I'm the only that's actually worked in the gaming industry. Oh did I forget to mention that earlier? My bad. But of course you yet again keep making assumptions about things you don't know about. You'd think it would've been obvious to you at this point that I know more about this stuff then you do, but that would imply some degree of you being wrong and that's just not possible is it?

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However, after release, Bioware did not add new dialogues to the existing companions,
They have recorded new dialogue for companions. Lacey Chabert (Mako) tweeted about going back into the studio to record new dialogue for Mako.

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yet it continued to add customizations for them.
Yeah, so? It's easy to add new customizations for comps. That doesn't mean it's easy to add a new in game system, mechanic, etc, to the game for customizing them ourselves.

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I also recall hearing that Bio flat out said 'no new content for the existing companions'. So, as much as I would want dialogue load to increase, asking for smaller concessions to an individual player taste sounds a bit less hopeless.
As I said above they've clearly recorded new dialogue for them, whether they end up using it or not is unknown.

Oh and FYI that statement didn't/doesn't imply never, just for the time being. We don't know what the 3.0 expansion pack is. Chances are that if they're going to do anything with the new companion dialogue it will be for 3.0.

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I love a lot of things in the game, just want added zest of full flexibility, player-driven (the best and the most expensive) to Bio-driven species cosmetic changes, to finally what they were doing already (slapping together new faces) ...
They're adding to what was already in the vanilla game. It's a lot easier for them to do that than create a new system.

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I feel that customizations without touching existing content may have a better shot, and for me, it would be an awesome improvement.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be, but you're operating under all these assumptions that just aren't true.

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I do not presume to speak for other players, I speak for myself, and I really-really-really want to change a lot of male romanceable companions into different species. For me that would add the "Galaxy far-gar-away" feel to my games. So, when I see work similar to what I want done, but not quite what I want... i feel compelled to complain, seeing that even the PvP crowd does that (which I naively thought gets most of those updates).
They're not even using the player customization system to it's potential so I can't imagine what you want is a high priority to them. For instance what's stopping them from adding more Legacy options to the character creation? As in things like skin tones, tattoos, etc? For instance if a player has both the Sith Pureblood and Chiss species unlocked allow Purebloods to use the Chiss skin tones and vice versa. Same goes for class markings/tattoos and a number of other things. Basically extend what they for the Twi'leks across all the races.

Now that^ is something that's easily doable, doesn't require anything new to be generated, and would increase revenue since more and more people would buy race unlocks (which are expensive) if they added such a thing.

At some point they need to do another customization update, because that's probably the only way we're going to see a Companion Barber Shop.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
05.10.2014 , 07:12 PM | #58
Quote:
Except that between the two of us I'm the only that's actually worked in the gaming industry. Oh did I forget to mention that earlier? My bad. But of course you yet again keep making assumptions about things you don't know about. You'd think it would've been obvious to you at this point that I know more about this stuff then you do, but that would imply some degree of you being wrong and that's just not possible is it?
Actually, I did all that you have outlined myself in NWN2 toolset when I wanted to make a module that would match NWN2 experience with full voice (full at the time being no PC voice). Got voicework from armature voice-actors, tagged, edited it, tied to the lines, set up the cutscenes, lip-synked. In my experience it was a hard work that took lots and lots of time. And that's with an unvoiced PC. I was a modder coming from an easy world of BG modding where tools compiled and added dialogues on the fly (and I have coded dialogue for 25 NPCs for BG1NPC project with 6 romances, conflicts, custcenes, interjections, character quests; I broke into IWD2 and coded 10 companions with all f the above for that game as well)... but when it came to NWN2 modding with voice and scripting... that's when the best I could do was not enough. When I look at the quality of the modern games, it is absolutely amazing that they can do it.

That's what I know. Just an amateur who used to hack to improve her own playing experience.

Now, unlocking an already existing terminal for a companion, with blacking out some unlocks, seems to be a relatively copy-paste scripting. Of course, if you have programmed something like that before and you can lay out step by step why adding checks in the terminal station to allow companion to get the new looks is so much harder than edit the script to cick off the new dialogue sequence for an SGR.

Alos, this is something I dealt with when producing a bisexual romance for the IWD2. No person woes a man and a woman in the same exact way... well, imo. I had two tracks deviating for a male and a female on the same toon, and I worked with someone to make sure it is appropriate, interesting, not offensive. And that's for a text which at most dozen of people would see. Just flipping the gender switch... maybe would work for Malavai. i doubt it works for many more of them. And, the player character height - would not it impact the cutscenes as well?

And while it provides a couple of additional options for a female PC (unless you are suggesting doing away with gender checks for all romances? I do not know how far your SGR goes) it doesn't add much to the straight female-male romance - where customization is a way to add a touch of the galaxy-far-far thing. And, straight experience is important to me because I have only played 2 class romances so far and not yet to the end.

What are the chances of a new romance? I have never seen one added to a Bio game post-release, even when Gaider was talking about it for BG2. Maybe the times had changed, and maybe our $15 a month carry that much weight.

But I have a feeling that as early as the game came out there would have been the "Can we have Zenith (or Scourge or Gault) as romances, please, please, PLEASE?" There is no way there have not been.

Do berate me all you want, and call me ignorant, but I am used to fixing things like that myself, and I miss the option. Fan-fiction is all nice and good, but experiencing it in the game is better.

Darth-Obvious's Avatar


Darth-Obvious
05.10.2014 , 09:24 PM | #59
Quote: Originally Posted by DomiSotto View Post
Actually, I did all that you have outlined myself in NWN2 toolset when I wanted to make a module that would match NWN2 experience with full voice (full at the time being no PC voice). Got voicework from armature voice-actors, tagged, edited it, tied to the lines, set up the cutscenes, lip-synked. In my experience it was a hard work that took lots and lots of time. And that's with an unvoiced PC. I was a modder coming from an easy world of BG modding where tools compiled and added dialogues on the fly (and I have coded dialogue for 25 NPCs for BG1NPC project with 6 romances, conflicts, custcenes, interjections, character quests; I broke into IWD2 and coded 10 companions with all f the above for that game as well)... but when it came to NWN2 modding with voice and scripting... that's when the best I could do was not enough. When I look at the quality of the modern games, it is absolutely amazing that they can do it.

That's what I know. Just an amateur who used to hack to improve her own playing experience.

Now, unlocking an already existing terminal for a companion, with blacking out some unlocks, seems to be a relatively copy-paste scripting. Of course, if you have programmed something like that before and you can lay out step by step why adding checks in the terminal station to allow companion to get the new looks is so much harder than edit the script to cick off the new dialogue sequence for an SGR.

Alos, this is something I dealt with when producing a bisexual romance for the IWD2. No person woes a man and a woman in the same exact way... well, imo. I had two tracks deviating for a male and a female on the same toon, and I worked with someone to make sure it is appropriate, interesting, not offensive.
You're talking about one person modding a game that runs on completely different tech versus a paid team of devs that know all the ins and outs of the tech they're working with. The two things aren't 1 to 1, and there's no way the current dev team would go to the same lengths you'd go to. To them it just needs to work, not be 100% appropriate.

You might not like the idea of both genders being woed the same way but it doesn't matter in TOR. Both genders act the same way when flirting themselves or being flirted with.

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Just flipping the gender switch... maybe would work for Malavai.
It would actually work for the majority of them as there aren't many gender specific terms in their dialogue. Mako is really the only one as she refers to Male players as Big Guy.

Once again, it is not about what you specifically think works and doesn't work or what is right or isn't right. To them (Bioware) it just needs to work, it doesn't need to "feel" right because if they add SGR it's not something they're going to devote a ton of time to.

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And, the player character height - would not it impact the cutscenes as well?
What are you talking about? I already explained to you that the cutscenes were designed around the existing body types. The player's body would/will never present a problem in cutscenes outside of BT3's wide shoulders in a few shots.

If you're asking about the male vs female body types, the answer is still no. The cutscenes are designed around all 8 body types, not males and females specifically. There are only a few gender specific scenes, namely the make your choice love triangle scenes but they're all wide shots, so height is never an issue. Same goes for the male Inquisitor scene with Ashara, ie wide shots.

When it comes to your character the game is designed in such a way to use the appropriate framing for your body when it comes to tight face shots. Wide shots seem to use a one size fits all universal framing for the 8 BTs. The camera is pulled far enough back in these/those shots that it doesn't matter what BT is used.

The only thing that would need to be adjusted are kissing scenes. The companion would always need to be set to position 2 or the female position in SGR kissing scenes as the kissing cutscenes use a universal system where the male character is always taller.

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And while it provides a couple of additional options for a female PC (unless you are suggesting doing away with gender checks for all romances? I do not know how far your SGR goes) it doesn't add much to the straight female-male romance - where customization is a way to add a touch of the galaxy-far-far thing. And, straight experience is important to me because I have only played 2 class romances so far and not yet to the end.
I'm talking about removing gender checks for all romances, which doesn't add anything to the game, it's just taking advantage of what's already there.

If you're asking for them to go back and expand on companion convos within the vanilla content, then that's just crazy. That's not going to happen. It's also not what people are asking for when requesting SGRs. They just want to be able to romance X companion the sameway a Male/Female character can. For instance if they're playing as a female Jedi they want to be able to romance Kira. They're not asking for additional conversations to be added to Kira (within the vanilla game) just that they could romance her the same way a Male character can.

The SGR argument has always been about equality, that's it.

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What are the chances of a new romance?
Most likely zero chance.

Every additional companion they add will probably be something that never has the potential/expectation for romance.

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But I have a feeling that as early as the game came out there would have been the "Can we have Zenith (or Scourge or Gault) as romances, please, please, PLEASE?" There is no way there have not been.
There have been and had the game been the WoW like success they thought it was that might have been something that changed over time.

TOR will most likely never have something like Cataclysm for WoW, ie an overhaul of the vanilla content. The major updates seem to be all about adding content, not expanding upon what's already there.

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Do berate me all you want, and call me ignorant, but I am used to fixing things like that myself, and I miss the option. Fan-fiction is all nice and good, but experiencing it in the game is better.
TOR doesn't operate on the same level as single player RPGs. It's an unrealistic expectation.

DomiSotto's Avatar


DomiSotto
05.11.2014 , 06:21 AM | #60
Yes, I was talking about kissing scenes that need overhaul for the SGR (in addition to extra voicework and dialogue re-edit)

Even with your simplified ideas on the SGR adaptations, I still remain unconvinced that it will be less work than opening Appearance Design Centres for the companions (with a BT restriction).

Moreover, I believe that a value added of Flexible Companion Customization is higher than the value added of the gender flip switch. I want to emphasize that I would welcome gender switch, but the other option will do much more for me as a player, and if I had to vote with my CC for one or another, I would vote for it.

So, let us agree to disagree, as at this point I have a very clear idea of your position, you have a clear idea of mine, and we are still at a status quo. Anything beyond is Bio's province.