Who wins? We were having this conversation last night (Alex, myself, and Friendlygurl [Tomeatsemjeans). Assuming the pilots are of equal skill. I think the advantage is probably with the scout truth be told, especially with LOS and the high evasion. The Gunships have a chance, but I think the scouts ability to close and burst are going to be more likely to kill the GS than the other way around. That being said, What do you guys think?

Who wins? We were having this conversation last night (Alex, myself, and Friendlygurl [Tomeatsemjeans). Assuming the pilots are of equal skill. I think the advantage is probably with the scout truth be told, especially with LOS and the high evasion. The Gunships have a chance, but I think the scouts ability to close and burst are going to be more likely to kill the GS than the other way around. That being said, What do you guys think?

 

We saw a pretty fair representation of this last night A couple of times I would devote to killing you and Kuci. Most of the exchanges ended up being me killing one of you then the other killing me in retaliation. However, a couple of those times I had DO, which helped me guarantee the kill before I went down.

 

I think all things being equal (and without Damage Overcharge involved), the two Gunships will win most of the time. Against an elusive Gunship pilot, it might take several seconds for the Scout to get even the first kill, and during that time, the second Gunship will get several shots at him. All it takes is two hits.

 

Ironically, for this particular mini-game, the Gunships would benefit more from Feedback Shield than Distortion Field.

 

Two Scouts vs. two Gunships would definitely go to the Scouts more often than not.

Assuming the pilots are of equal skill.

 

Assuming any coordination whatsoever, 2 intelligent gunships would euthanize the scout. I don't even think this is debatable. Assuming the gunships can pick the battleground (which, being gunships, they should have), there's nowhere for the scout to LOS and still be able to fire on one gunship without risking retailation. A skilled gunship will be able to survive a quads 'n pods build long enough for the other gunship to line up a kill.

Edited May 6, 2014 by TrinityLyre

No matter how awesome the scout pilot is, two coordinated gunships vaporize him as soon as they get LOS. And since the scout can't kill them without getting LOS, he can't win.

 

Luckily we have 8v8 battles.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Slivovidze

Kill I don't know... With Barrel Roll a gunship can make the scout run long enough to give the 2nd gunship a chance to take him down. But it's probably doable...

I almost did it with an ion/rapid/cluster starguard. The scout on my tail killed me before I could finish the second gunship...

Depends on where the equal skill level is. At high skill level, gunships, easily. At lower skill level, where the Gs pilots might not be good at running, probably the scout.

So early consensus seems to point to the two gunships having the leads.... What happens when it becomes a 2 on 2 fight? Scouts easily blow the GSs away, right?

So early consensus seems to point to the two gunships having the leads.... What happens when it becomes a 2 on 2 fight? Scouts easily blow the GSs away, right?

 

Why am I getting a feeling that this is a nerf scouts thread in disguise.....

Why am I getting a feeling that this is a nerf scouts thread in disguise.....

 

It's really not, he's just confused as balls, its how leggo is.

So early consensus seems to point to the two gunships having the leads.... What happens when it becomes a 2 on 2 fight? Scouts easily blow the GSs away, right?

 

It depends. If the Gunships take the same target and land the kill early, it becomes an other 2vs1 but with slightly less advantages.

 

I'd say it's even.

So early consensus seems to point to the two gunships having the leads.... What happens when it becomes a 2 on 2 fight? Scouts easily blow the GSs away, right?

 

If the two scouts split their attacks, yeah, the gunships will most likely just get dogged down and killed. Assuming equal (high) skill. We're not talking about newbies, right?

It's really not, he's just confused as balls, its how leggo is.

 

This discussion was created because we were talking about this last night, and while I have my opinions about scouts, it's moreso my opinions about the damn evasion buffs not appearing under the targets. I just wanted to see how the community as a whole thought. The fact that strikes aren't in this conversation kinda indicates the lack of fear towards them. Also, this is a good sense of how we feel before the new T3 GS drops

 

If the two scouts split their attacks, yeah, the gunships will most likely just get dogged down and killed. Assuming equal (high) skill. We're not talking about newbies, right?

 

No newbies I'm talking high end combat with mastered ships

Edited May 6, 2014 by SammyGStatus

So early consensus seems to point to the two gunships having the leads.... What happens when it becomes a 2 on 2 fight? Scouts easily blow the GSs away, right?

 

Not easily. If the Gunships focus fire while the Scouts close in, then they can turn it into a 2v1 and win.

 

The Scouts need to each go after their own Gunship. Once they get into range, they'll likely win, since neither Gunship can attack reliably once engaged.

 

This has always been the interesting thing about Scouts and Gunships--depending on range, they are both the best counter to each other. It's a rare example of Paper covers Rock, but Rock can break through Paper if thrown from a sufficient range

 

It's the ideal of design I think--it's not the ship class that is "Paper" or "Rock" but a ship class + circumstances of engagement that determine its place in the triangle.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Nemarus

This discussion was created because we were talking about this last night, and while I have my opinions about scouts, it's moreso my opinions about the damn evasion buffs not appearing under the targets. I just wanted to see how the community as a whole thought. The fact that strikes aren't in this conversation kinda indicates the lack of fear towards them. Also, this is a good sense of how we feel before the new T3 GS drops

 

 

 

No newbies I'm talking high end combat with mastered ships

 

you will find a lack of discussion on strikes for a lot of this forum.... except .... here. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=739057

I think 2 scouts have a much better chance. A max evasion build means the gunships will not have an easy time focusing one scout on approach. Once it's a chase or melee, then the gunships are at a distinct disadvantage. They *can* win at equivalent high skill levels, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

Throw interdiction missile and turning thrusters into the mix...well, we'll have to see, right?

This discussion was created because we were talking about this last night, and while I have my opinions about scouts

See here you go again always making last night's in-game conversation into a thread.

 

it's moreso my opinions about the damn evasion buffs not appearing under the targets. I just wanted to see how the community as a whole thought.

You could you know directly make a thread about that, there is also the ticket system and the bug report section of the forums.

We saw a pretty fair representation of this last night A couple of times I would devote to killing you and Kuci. Most of the exchanges ended up being me killing one of you then the other killing me in retaliation. However, a couple of those times I had DO, which helped me guarantee the kill before I went down.

 

Last night was a terrible representation, since my gunship was essentially virgin (and presumably your scout was not even close). The upgrade curve for gunships is pretty extreme, especially on the defensive side.

 

That said, I don't believe the answer is more in the favor of two gunships (I will elaborate below).

 

I think all things being equal (and without Damage Overcharge involved), the two Gunships will win most of the time. Against an elusive Gunship pilot, it might take several seconds for the Scout to get even the first kill, and during that time, the second Gunship will get several shots at him. All it takes is two hits.

 

We've been in this situation multiple times on JM, and I believe I could consistently replicate it. The scout eventually wins, and more importantly the scout basically neutralizes the gunships wrt the rest of his team for the duration of the fight.

 

You do have to build for it - but that's how I do build my scout. At the time I was using BLC, pods, TT (evasion boost), normal evasion stacking setup, barrel roll (+speed), regen thrusters, and running interference. (I could have done even better by dropping the dfield lock break, but that would be silly.)

 

One gunship is effectively neutralized just by the fact that you're pursuing it - which means (if skills aren't perfectly equal) you go after the better gunship even if that increases your TTK. Your goal isn't necessarily to get in a surprise burst kill in one run, but rather to wear the gunship down over repeated engagements. The only additional constraint is that you dodge the other gunship's shots via all the standard techniques.

 

Now, that's a big constraint. But only because you're already busy fighting one gunship! In 1v1, even if it isn't allowed to flee or engage it is just not very hard for the scout to stay alive. You have a huge engine pool, fast regen, and very high evasion (time-averaged it'll be 42 not counting dfield - counting dfield your time-averaged evasion is 57). Just keep moving and keep yourself at the edge of the enemy's firing arc. If you run down your engine pool AND are out of cooldowns, take a very quick rest behind an asteroid.

 

It's tricky to do it while also pursuing a target, sure. But if you have good spatial awareness you can do it. You don't have to have your "target" actually targeted the whole time - you can target the other gunship a lot of the time. And if you really are in trouble, barrel roll past 15k, recuperate, and dive back in. The loss is that the two gunships get a brief window in which they can shoot at your team again... but it's only a brief window, and can be a reasonable concession.

 

Ironically, for this particular mini-game, the Gunships would benefit more from Feedback Shield than Distortion Field.

 

lolnope

 

Two Scouts vs. two Gunships would definitely go to the Scouts more often than not.

 

Always. Every time. The scouts run a man-to-man offense and the gunships can't support each other any longer.

 

Assuming any coordination whatsoever, 2 intelligent gunships would euthanize the scout. I don't even think this is debatable. Assuming the gunships can pick the battleground (which, being gunships, they should have), there's nowhere for the scout to LOS and still be able to fire on one gunship without risking retailation. A skilled gunship will be able to survive a quads 'n pods build long enough for the other gunship to line up a kill.

 

Gunships don't get to choose the battlefield. Gunships, to be useful, can't just chill out in some random open space. They have to actually seek the melee. If the gunships go into a big open area away from any fighting in hopes of setting a trap for you, you can just ignore them and they'll be worthless.

 

No matter how awesome the scout pilot is, two coordinated gunships vaporize him as soon as they get LOS. And since the scout can't kill them without getting LOS, he can't win.

 

Absolutely not. At the start of the engagement, when you can choose any approach vector you want, is your safest moment. You only start being vulnerable when you have to balance defensive flying against staying on target.

This discussion was created because we were talking about this last night, and while I have my opinions about scouts, it's moreso my opinions about the damn evasion buffs not appearing under the targets. I just wanted to see how the community as a whole thought. The fact that strikes aren't in this conversation kinda indicates the lack of fear towards them. Also, this is a good sense of how we feel before the new T3 GS drops

 

 

 

No newbies I'm talking high end combat with mastered ships

 

I agree the unreliable buff display is a bug, but honestly, I have a hard time sympathizing with you here. You're complaining about not being able to tell just how evasive a target is from 15km away. Meanwhile that target likely has no idea you are even trying to shoot him. In terms of who is hurting for lack of information, I think the target is

 

And please, no one repeat that garbage about "OH BUT THE GLOW TELLS YOU YOU ARE IN DANGER". Yes, if it's in the 60 degree field of vision you have. And even then, you have no idea who is being targeted unless you target the Gunship.

 

What railguns really need is a tracer-line during charge up, much like a Spartan Laser in Halo. That way, if I suddenly see a red line arc across my screen, I know it's time to abandon chasing my target and go to ground.

 

If we get that, then yes I totally agree you should know when the target has Distortion Field or Running Inteference active

Absolutely not. At the start of the engagement, when you can choose any approach vector you want, is your safest moment. You only start being vulnerable when you have to balance defensive flying against staying on target.

That's exactly true, but it applies for both scouts and gunships. The scout is straight up incapable of simulteously putting two gunships on the evasive, and if it wants to even pressure one of the gunships it won't be able to do the evasive flying necessary to not get blown out of the sky by the other gunship.

If the Gunships are good pilots, and they keep their eyes open, the scout doesn't have a chance. I have been the target of this before (with very good pilots) and they can consistently take me down fast. One uses ion and the other uses slug... that's one dead scout

 

For best results the GS should cover eachother from 10-12k away from one another. that way the scout can't go for both at the same time. If it gets dicey for one pilot they should run toward the other, this should give the buddy gs a nice chance at a clean shot.

 

(Edit) As for 2 on 2 I would give it to the scouts if they attack both at the same time separately. The GS still have a chance but they lose that 1-2 punch of ion and slug at the same time. This however could go either way, if the gunships run away from eachother they are doomed, if they stick together they have a chance.

Edited May 6, 2014 by DamascusAdontise

There seems to be this ridiculous idea that scouts are vulnerable on approach to a gunship. No way. Scouts are only vulnerable at the 14km mark when distracted by something else.

 

Railgun tracking penalties are enormous. At the edge of a railgun's firing arc its accuracy is 9%, i.e. it has literally 0% chance of hitting the scout. In fact, the maximum angle at which it is theoretically possible to hit the scout even when it has no cooldowns active is 15.2 degrees. With running interference active, that's 12.2 degrees. (These numbers are at 15km and so improve by a total of 2 degrees at 7.5km.)

 

(Incidentally, this is why I run Wingman on my gunship.)

 

The volume of space in which a gunship can hit a scout is large but very narrow, and it is very easy for the scout to stick to the edge of that volume (or stay outside it entirely).

Edited May 6, 2014 by Kuciwalker

I agree the unreliable buff display is a bug, but honestly, I have a hard time sympathizing with you here. You're complaining about not being able to tell just how evasive a target is from 15km away. Meanwhile that target likely has no idea you are even trying to shoot him. In terms of who is hurting for lack of information, I think the target is

 

Likely not true. As a scout, if there is a gunship within 15km of me that's probably because I'm on my way to kill it.

 

That said, I don't think the buff thing is a big issue, mostly because as a gunship I pretty much know what cooldowns you are going to pop and when.

That's exactly true, but it applies for both scouts and gunships. The scout is straight up incapable of simulteously putting two gunships on the evasive, and if it wants to even pressure one of the gunships it won't be able to do the evasive flying necessary to not get blown out of the sky by the other gunship.

 

See above about "large but narrow". You sacrifice some time-on-target - keeping the pressure up but lengthening your TTK - in order to stay hard to hit.

And please, no one repeat that garbage about "OH BUT THE GLOW TELLS YOU YOU ARE IN DANGER". Yes, if it's in the 60 degree field of vision you have. And even then, you have no idea who is being targeted unless you target the Gunship.

 

I even know a pair of Gunships who abuse the Rail targeting system to make you believe you're not the target, although you actually are.

There seems to be this ridiculous idea that scouts are vulnerable on approach to a gunship. No way. Scouts are only vulnerable at the 14km mark when distracted by something else.

 

Railgun tracking penalties are enormous. At the edge of a railgun's firing arc its accuracy is 9%, i.e. it has literally 0% chance of hitting the scout. In fact, the maximum angle at which it is theoretically possible to hit the scout even when it has no cooldowns active is 15.2 degrees. With running interference active, that's 12.2 degrees. (These numbers are at 15km and so improve by a total of 2 degrees at 7.5km.)

 

(Incidentally, this is why I run Wingman on my gunship.)

 

The volume of space in which a gunship can hit a scout is large but very narrow, and it is very easy for the scout to stick to the edge of that volume (or stay outside it entirely).

 

I don't know about you, but Aimbot has snapshot me with railgun from under 10k many times, even when I'm moving full speed laterally. If I ease up on the pressure for him for even a moment, he stops, pivots and shoots. It's very impressive.