Hello Sins, Shadows and BW,

 

This thread will be utilized to provide suggestions in order to tweak and hopefully improve our talent trees or abilities. Please post in the following manner:

 

 

• Spec or Talent you wish to improve
  
• How you will improve it
  
• Why you wish to improve it
  
• Show us how (whether it is math or good logic) your 'tweaks' will accomplish a beneficial change

 

 

 

Example

Lambaste (Madness)

- Additionally should reduce the cost on Lacerate by X

- I believe Lacerate should be used more

- If we reduce the force cost by X, then it will allow the ability to be used more often and fit smoothly into an AoE rotation.

Main ideas or those most welcomed by the community (with the exception of making sure it isn't nonsensical by me) will be edited into the main post. Please let us know if you like someone's idea as it will help pinpoint the noticeable ones easier.

 

Rules

- No flaming or trolling

- No over elitism

- Ideas may be subjective, try to respect differences

- Absolutely no BW bashing!

 

Good luck!

I have a few that I put in the other thread, that you said to hold off for here. Though for the sake of simplicity, ill bring it down to 2 of them:

 

SPEC - DECEPTION

TALENT - SABER CONDUIT

 

IMPROVEMENT: No longer has a rate limit on it (or at least has the rate limit reduced to 6 seconds), thus allowing a nice increase to force regeneration for Deception.

REASON FOR THIS BUFF: PvE Sustained damage is quite lacking. This is partially due to RNG, and partially due to poor resource management. By bringing this in, you get an extra 10 force every 6 seconds (guaranteed) as well as a 25% proc chance burst of 10 force with a 4.5 second lockout, instead of 10 force every 10-12 seconds.

 

MATHS:

 

More force = more use of damage moves

More use of damage moves = more DPS

More DPS = well, thats what we are trying to do aren't we?

 

As for PvP for this? Well the strong areas of sins in PvP are its ability to global people. When you are globalling people, the last thing you care about is resource management. Sustained fights are just as bad for sins in PvP as they are in PvE, so this is quite beneficial without causing any real problems.

 

As for the other change?

 

SPEC - MADNESS

TALENT - WRATH

CHANGE - Now reduces cast time of Crushing Darkness by 100%, and cooldown by 7.5 seconds. The proc is now a 100% chance, with a much shorter lockout (either 3 seconds, or 0) but only off Thrash, and is a 100% force cost reduction to either Maul or Crushing Darkness.

 

REASON FOR THIS BUFF - As with Deception, Madness is also not that great in PvE. Its used over deception because of its slightly higher sustained damage, but it still has a combination of force issues, bad DPS, and as said in the questions, feels like its missing out on not having a use for its signiature move - maul. This change allows maul to be used as a filler attack in Madness, while also removing RNG.

 

MATHS

Top Madness parse is this. The DPS done is ~3625 dps. It uses saber strike every ~7.5 seconds, providing 213.2dps.

 

Using the same gear, same crit rate as saber strike, and same damage rolls as saber strike, Maul will hit for an average of 3243.2 damage/hit, which, if used every 7.5 seconds, equates to ~432.4dps - a 219.2 dps increase over saber strike.

 

This is a nice, respectable boost to the dps of Madness spec, and as an added bonus allows the use of Maul in the rotation.

 

Oh and before people go on about "Why not just maul instead of crushing darkness?" Crushing Darkness does about 7215.9 damage/'hit', more than double of that of maul. Its not a problem, in other words.

Oh and Thrash is also more powerful in the damage/hit situation (4152.2 damage/activation for thrash vs the 3243.2 for maul), so Maul would become a force-management tool as opposed to the Damage Dealing ability it is for Deception.

Edited April 30, 2014 by TACeMossie

SPEC - MADNESS

TALENT - WRATH

CHANGE - Now reduces cast time of Crushing Darkness by 100%, and cooldown by 7.5 seconds. The proc is now a 100% chance, with a much shorter lockout (either 3 seconds, or 0) but only off Thrash, and is a 100% force cost reduction to either Maul or Crushing Darkness.

I had written an wall of text regarding this when you first posted it but the maintenance screwed me over.

7.5 sec CD on crushing darkness doesn't work it will cause you to delay either Discharge/Creeping Terror or Crushing darkness both might end in a chain reaction delaying the other DOT or deathfield

6sec 9sec (not sure about 12sec) 15sec or 18sec would all work but only 15sec & 18sec would work during execute (maybe 12 I can't remember writing that up)

I had written an wall of text regarding this when you first posted it but the maintenance screwed me over.

7.5 sec CD on crushing darkness doesn't work it will cause you to delay either Discharge/Creeping Terror or Crushing darkness both might end in a chain reaction delaying the other DOT or deathfield

6sec 9sec (not sure about 12sec) 15sec or 18sec would all work but only 15sec & 18sec would work during execute (maybe 12 I can't remember writing that up)

 

Ah, well I was thinking 7.5 seconds as that was the duration of the lockout on wrath currently. Completely forgot about the possible adverse effects it could have on Creeping Terror/Discharge because I was thinking of it too much like Death Field's 15 second cooldown, which can be worked into the 18 seconds of the other 2.

 

6 seconds and 9 seconds would work fine with creeping terror/discharge though, 12 would be difficult but possible. Evidence? Pyro Spec.

 

PT Perspective:

6 second PPA Proc, 9 second RP cooldown, 15 second TD cooldown and 18 second IM cooldown. The only reason you can't keep em all up at all times is heat management -_-

 

Merc Perspective

6 second PPA proc, 12 second unload cooldown, 15 second TD cooldown and 18 second IM cooldown. The only reason you can't keep em all up at all times is Unload is a 3 second channeled ability. Oh and heat management -_-

 

Either way, that cooldown reduction for CD is up for debate. Im thinking 6 seconds now though, so it can keep the same uptime it currently enjoys, though move the damage a little more out of the initial hit and a bit more into the DoT as to encourage not clipping it.

Edited April 30, 2014 by TACeMossie

PT Perspective:

6 second PPA Proc, 9 second RP cooldown, 15 second TD cooldown and 18 second IM cooldown. The only reason you can't keep em all up at all times is heat management -_-

there are some differences between pyro and madness one is pyro doesn't add a new move with 6sec CD into the rotation below30%.

madness has two 18sec dots whereas pyro has only one

and you can easily delay using rail shot by one GCD in order to fit Thermal Detonator in since the lockout counts from the moment you get the proc not from ability activation

 

as i said 6&9sec only work as long as you leave Assassinate out of the rotation.

15 works but doesn't help with remembering when to reapply your DOTs without constantly looking at debuffs or counting GCDs and 18 is boring

 

I would like to keep Crushing darkness as flexible as possible

the only change in regards to Crushing darkness would be Lingering nightmares

it makes dot clipping more likely and that's all it does, we would be far better off with a percent based damage increase.

 

taking Pyro PPA as an example the best thing about CD resetting Talents is that you can delay the ability so that it doesn't interfere with other important Abilities without loosing DPS the DOT part of crushing darkness takes that advantage away because not using CD the moment the DOT runs out leads to a DPS loss.

•Spec or Talent you wish to improve

•How you will improve it

•Why you wish to improve it

•Show us how (whether it is math or good logic) your 'tweaks' will accomplish a beneficial change

 

-Death Field for Deception

 

- Move it down in the Madness tree but move the main talents that improve it up in the tree.

 

- Deception has one of the lowest AoE outputs in the game. So much so that, in AoE situations its more beneficial to cycle through our single target rotation. It would be nice to have some reliable AoE that does a decent amount of damage. Without the talents to improve the healing aspect or Deathmark, it should keep it from being unbalanced in PvP.

Edited April 30, 2014 by AGSThomas

•Spec or Talent you wish to improve

•How you will improve it

•Why you wish to improve it

•Show us how (whether it is math or good logic) your 'tweaks' will accomplish a beneficial change

 

-Death Field for Deception

 

- Move it down in the Madness tree but move the main talents that improve it up in the tree.

 

- Deception has one of the lowest AoE outputs in the game. So much so that, in AoE situations its more beneficial to cycle through our single target rotation. It would be nice to have some reliable AoE that does a decent amount of damage. Without the talents to improve the healing aspect or Deathmark, it should keep it from being unbalanced in PvP.

 

As much as I'd love to see Deception get some AOE damage, I don't think this is the right way to go about it. It cheapens Madness by making one of its abilities available to every build you can think up. Madness's AOE damage isn't exactly the greatest either, so why not add some ability to Assassins in general? I've always thought Shock Storm/Project Storm would be really awesome, but probably a bit too much like Death From Above/Mortar Volley. On top of all this, all other classes would then ask for another talented skill to be available to them, and could you imagine Lightning Sorcs with Death Field as well? Or Concealment Operatives with Corrosive Grenade? Or Vengeance Juggernauts with Obliterate rooting you even more?

Make Breaching Shadows trigger often (sorry for Shadow term)

Edit: Talking about Infiltration/Deception skill

Edited April 30, 2014 by Adaliaya

From my other post:

 

I'd like Madness to be a priority based spec instead of the boring rotation that it is now.

 

Something to replace Raze:

 

Deadly Awe: While Lightning charge is active, Discharge grants 3 stacks of Deadly Awe over 3 seconds, reducing the force cost of your next crushing darkness by 100% and increasing its damage by 35%. Additionally, each use of Creeping Terror grants 3 stack of Deadly Awe and also reduces the force cost of your next Maul by 100%.

 

(to coincide with the sorc's lightning strike and CrD).

 

Also wouldn't a death ability be interesting? Say you die, but your enemies still have a number of death marks on them, perhaps for each death mark on them that when you die, they take 200 damage each? Lets say to a maximum of 25 death marks. I find that this is sort of in direct combat to the juggernaut's ED.

 

To replace Claws of Decay: Whenever you use death field, you are granted 1 charge of lightning, making your next force lightning or shock free of force cost.

 

Replaces Lambaste:

 

Eye of the abyss: When Phase Walk is used, you are unable to be mezzed, rooted or slowed for 15 seconds, additionally removes the cast time to phase walk by 100% and the cooldown by 45 seconds.

 

(or instead of having to use an additional CD to obtain the ability, that it could just be used in the first 15 seconds of laying PW, additionally to avoid it being spammed (by right clicking and removing the buff and being able to use it again without consequence, there could be an internal rate limit to be able to use it again, ever 45 seconds)

 

(this coincides with the amount of mezzes and roots in the game and is similar to hydraulic override)

 

Haunted dreams could give us back the instant WW, along with a reset to force run (similar to the healer's reset to force run after the use of force barrier - the sorc's "corrupted speed").

 

As for 1 means of fixing the ttk issue, they could keep some form of lambaste, in that instead, using lacerate consumes 5 death marks (and their dots) instantaneously. Also, I didn't take into account where the abilities should be on the tree, to avoid hybrids.

 

Perhaps another means would be that each hit on a madness assassin should reduce the CD on either force shroud or deflection, similar to the op healer's "evasive imperative" ability.

 

Baseline abilities that would be nice: "Darkswell" (deception), disjunction (darkness - not including buff to shroud) or the sorc's "fadeout".

 

The potential burst from madness should still be under that of deception, and should still act as a DOT spec.

 

Where the madness sorc has kiting and slows to their advantage for being ranged, assassins should have melee burst and some sort of immunity or protection or defense to being up close to the enemy.

From my other post:

 

I'd like Madness to be a priority based spec instead of the boring rotation that it is now.

...

 

do you want to remove the DOTs or do you want to keep them

 

if you have dots in your spec that aren't limited by a Cooldown it is impossible not to use a "rotation" yes you swap out one ability for another from time to time but if you have to keep dots up and make sure you don't clip it is impossible not to use a "rotation" with the kind of debuff tracking we are... "blessed" (is that the right word?) with.

I'm sure there's a means to making it both. I suppose then what I meant more was at least not a fixed rotation.

 

Like with my above idea, getting to use either maul or CrD would be nice.

I'm sure there's a means to making it both. I suppose then what I meant more was at least not a fixed rotation.

 

Like with my above idea, getting to use either maul or CrD would be nice.

I think i don't quite get it

what do you plan to do about the cd reset of Crushing darkness? remove it or keep it just with only 3sec icd?

if you keep the reset -> never use Maul

that is, if you meant discharge ticks grant the stacks if discharge activation grants the stacks it would be worse then ever since you would have to delay CD every time except if there are two or more Targets and get only one CD per dot cycle instead of one guaranteed and a second most of the time

I think there'd have to be no reset as a result. A sort of strict CD similar to how sorcs are.

 

I meant discharge granting the stacks so you could be free to use other abilities. Like the other one I mentioned above with the free shock or FL. So first you lay down DF, you get the free shock, but first you discharge, and instead of waiting for CrD you use shock to use a GCD, then you get the free CrD.

 

Right now it seems as though to proc CrD it takes about 1-5 GCDs.

Here's one I posted elsewhere. Not being a theorycrafter, I left the important values blank. As I also posted before, the exact details don't matter a great deal to me: I would just like to see a new single-target burst window created during AOE phases.

 

Deep Impact (Infiltration, tier 6)

• In addition, hitting two or more targets with Whirling Blow has a [50 / 100]% chance to grant Tunnel Vision, increasing the damage of Clairvoyant Strike, Project, Shadow Strike, and Force Breach by [X / X]% for X seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every X seconds, and targets cannot be players. Stacks up to X times, where X is the number of targets hit by Whirling Blow.
   
  
• I would like to see single-target specs gain new utility during AOE phases. Therefore, I would like to see a new single-target burst phase created during AOE phases. The damage should not be on par with an AOE spec during the AOE phase, but it should be enough to make an impact.
   
  
• In any fight with adds, AOE specs see huge increases in raid utility, disproportionate to the utility burst specs or single-target specs see during relevant phases. Any buff to Infiltration's AOE would dilute the differences between Balance and Infiltration and is unlikely to happen. So, during an AOE phase, Infiltration Shadows can use Whirling Blow once to gain the buff, and then focus their single-target damage on whatever target they choose. This should both increase their overall damage and their raid utility during phases they would otherwise have remained stagnant in.
  

I think there'd have to be no reset as a result. A sort of strict CD similar to how sorcs are.

 

I meant discharge granting the stacks so you could be free to use other abilities. Like the other one I mentioned above with the free shock or FL. So first you lay down DF, you get the free shock, but first you discharge, and instead of waiting for CrD you use shock to use a GCD, then you get the free CrD.

 

Right now it seems as though to proc CrD it takes about 1-5 GCDs.

 

1-2 melee attacks and you have it unless it is delayed until the cd runs out naturally (i'm assuming there's some kind of bug when that happens since it's exactly 2 times the ICD)

the CD reset on crushing darkness is really good, 15sec would also work but all the alternatives deal less damage then Crushing darkness (it's one of our main damage dealers if you are careful not to clip the dot part) so it would be definitively a loss if you remove the CD reset.

With that too, another suggestion would be that I'd rather not have to check if the enemy had a lightning debuff on them. Currently, in order to proc Raze you have to have lightning charge on the enemy, and especially in PVP, this is quite annoying, no only due to the setup, but also if the debuff has already disappeared for any number of reasons.

Here's one I posted elsewhere. Not being a theorycrafter, I left the important values blank. As I also posted before, the exact details don't matter a great deal to me: I would just like to see a new single-target burst window created during AOE phases.

 

Deep Impact (Infiltration, tier 6)

• In addition, hitting two or more targets with Whirling Blow has a [50 / 100]% chance to grant Tunnel Vision, increasing the damage of Clairvoyant Strike, Project, Shadow Strike, and Force Breach by [X / X]% for X seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every X seconds, and targets cannot be players. Stacks up to X times, where X is the number of targets hit by Whirling Blow.
   
  
• I would like to see single-target specs gain new utility during AOE phases. Therefore, I would like to see a new single-target burst phase created during AOE phases. The damage should not be on par with an AOE spec during the AOE phase, but it should be enough to make an impact.
   
  
• In any fight with adds, AOE specs see huge increases in raid utility, disproportionate to the utility burst specs or single-target specs see during relevant phases. Any buff to Infiltration's AOE would dilute the differences between Balance and Infiltration and is unlikely to happen. So, during an AOE phase, Infiltration Shadows can use Whirling Blow once to gain the buff, and then focus their single-target damage on whatever target they choose. This should both increase their overall damage and their raid utility during phases they would otherwise have remained stagnant in.
  

 

I think the non-player part is really important here, but that should go without saying. It's certainly a neat idea, and I feel like it would be a cool alternative to getting an AOE move. However, you forgot one important part:

 

• Lacerate additionally refunds X Force per target struck.
  

 

Deception is already incredibly Force sensitive, and throwing in even a single Lacerate mucks up your single target rotation, causing a huge loss in DPS as you replace 2-3 Voltaic Slashes with Saber Strikes to regain the Force you lost.

 

Also, I might have the skill split in two and replace Static Cling and Magnetism, or some other talent, as I feel that having Crackling Blasts do so much might be a bit unbalanced.

MADNESS

 

Death Field: Gives double the healing of the current base value.

My reasoning is that I want to remove Devour, but want to keep the benefits of Death Field from the top of the tree.

Parasitism: Causes critical hits from your periodic damage abilities to restore 1%/2% of your total force (move to Tier 4).

Same logic as above, so neither are actual improvements, just freeing up skill points.

Fanaticism: Decrease the cost of Death Field by 25%/50%.

Logic is clear, I want to reduce the cost of Death Field back to 25 so the spec isn't as force starved and can do more Thrash's and less Saber Strikes.

Claws of Decay: Increases the critical strike damage of Thrash 25%/50% and Assassinate by 15%/30%.

Here's a big change. Adding critical damage to Assasinate helps give this spec some much needed burst.

Devour (change name): Reduces the cost of Assassinate by 5/10 and any damage from your lightning discharge, crushing darkness or creeping terror has a 5%/10% chance to proc the use of Assassinate. Cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds.

This gives the Spec access to some much needed burst, and the reduced cost keeps this skill from adding force issues.

Lambaste: Reduces the force cost of Lacerate by 25 and also automatically triggers lightning charge on affected targets on a separate limit.

This skill *may* be usefull if it didn't cost so much. With a cost of 15, it may be worth using.

Corrupted Flesh: REMOVE

As you'll see below, I combined the two skills since neither is all that beneficial.

Shapeless Spirit: Reduces all damage taken while stunned by 15%/30% as well as reduces all Periodic damage by 7.5%/15% at all times.

Edited May 1, 2014 by DarthSylar

u know how polarity shift has a 30% movement increase for madness i think sins should get that for overcharge saber in madness tree

a snare in death field/lightning charge procs would be nice

and the front facing maul thing in darkness should be like a teir 1 skill since in questing and stuff its annoying as hell to solo quest and turn an npc around for a maul plus madness could use maull too

Change set bonus to the following.

 

2 set bonus 15 % crit on voltaic slash

4 set bonus 8% damage increase to shock, discharge or maul.

Change set bonus to the following.

 

2 set bonus 15 % crit on voltaic slash

4 set bonus 8% damage increase to shock, discharge or maul.

 

Everyone and their mom would run that in pvp. Way ott.

Everyone and their mom would run that in pvp. Way ott.

 

That might be true but it is still a quite easy way to increase the damage out overall in pve, just make PVE set bonus not work in PVP and vice versa

IMHO Deception lacks sustained damage for boss fights. Burst damage is awesome, although it could do too with a little bit less randomness.

 

I would propose a long ticking DoT, which gets applied by a critical hit with your lightsaber. This would add additional sustained damage and would not matter very much in the burst phase (PvP comes to mind here). You could also add a force regeneration mechanism to this dot, to facilitate force management (for example you get 2 force for every critical hit on a target which currently has the DoT). The whole mechanism would be similar to the Vengeance tree, where the sustained damage comes from the various DoTs.

Change set bonus to the following.

 

2 set bonus 15 % crit on voltaic slash

4 set bonus 8% damage increase to shock, discharge or maul.

 

what? are u mad?

 

we don't need these buffs. and it would op btw.

 

we need a more *solid* procs/rotation, and IMHO reduce the *********** force of voltaich slash.

 

if for each shock we use a saber strike (unless we have 3stacks for discharge) we can't sustain it cuz we will need 1time using saber strike 2times. (this if we don't have blackout and force cloack up). this point BREAKS the sustain dmg and dps using saber strike is already dropped down.

 

imho -5Force can be nice on voltaic slash (no math into this value soz)

 

another thing is to increas mdg of saber strike because...1200/1300 I forgot atm the right value is really low.

 

I don't think infiltration needs something else for its rotation.

IMHO Deception lacks sustained damage for boss fights. Burst damage is awesome, although it could do too with a little bit less randomness.

 

I would propose a long ticking DoT, which gets applied by a critical hit with your lightsaber. This would add additional sustained damage and would not matter very much in the burst phase (PvP comes to mind here). You could also add a force regeneration mechanism to this dot, to facilitate force management (for example you get 2 force for every critical hit on a target which currently has the DoT). The whole mechanism would be similar to the Vengeance tree, where the sustained damage comes from the various DoTs.

 

I'd not like to see DOTs on infiltration, keep them for balance.

Also it hasn't to break LW's CC.

 

which skills can apply this dot? IMHO it would affect the burst on pvp like Mind crush does.

 

LW (if it crits. applies dot) -> mind crush -> 3 crits. would be op