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Is SWTOR Part of New "Legends"? Or New Canon?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Is SWTOR Part of New "Legends"? Or New Canon?

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
04.28.2014 , 12:22 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBentOne View Post
If Disney stick a legends tag on it that means it is no longer part of the same universe and therefore all need for coherency is totally lost. This is the reason why they tossed the entire EU. So they didn't have to try to be coherent with the new movies.
They tossed out the entire EU because they wanted a fresh start and maximized freedom for their future storylines. Bioware cannot do whatever they want regardless of whether its canon or legends, that isnt the way it works.

Bioware submits everything regarding story to Lucasfilm for approval. So it doesnt mean they can just do whatever they wanted.

LilSaihah's Avatar


LilSaihah
04.28.2014 , 02:27 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBentOne View Post
You know something just occurred to me. If Disney declares this game "Legends" then there is nothing stopping bioware from writing that the empire actually won the war in this universe. Imperial victory suddenly becomes a very possible outcome of the war instead of something we know won't happen.

I really hate the dumping of the EU, like really really really hate it. But these are the thing we now must consider.
Wasn't an imperial victory already a possibility? It just means that the republic has to pop up again and beat the Empire.
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Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
04.28.2014 , 04:01 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by TheBentOne View Post
If Disney stick a legends tag on it that means it is no longer part of the same universe and therefore all need for coherency is totally lost. This is the reason why they tossed the entire EU. So they didn't have to try to be coherent with the new movies.
Legends is still part of the same universe, it just doesn't share the same level of authenticity as the official canon.

The canon can override the old EU and prove it "untrue" Legends cannot go on its own way and override existing canon. Nothing has changed in terms of how canon operates as far as we are aware, all works are still bound by it.

As for the debate, the way I see it, Story Group involvement can only mean one of two thing:

SWTOR is going to be canon.

SWTOR is safe from retcons.

There is no fathomable reason I can think of for why the Story Group would bother endorsing the latest update of Galactic Starfighter if they planned to retcon it in the future.

And with them stressing that future canon is not beholden to the EU I see no reason why they would try and make SWTOR fit with future continuity if they did not have plans to canonise it in that continuity
.

HiddenPalm's Avatar


HiddenPalm
04.28.2014 , 07:28 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ericpeterson View Post
I know there are a bunch of threads already about the Legends and Lucasfilm Story Group announcement. But I really came to this forum to find information about whether or not SWTOR is being considered Legends.

I commented a bit about this in some of the other threads, but I wanted to create one specific thread here in the hope that maybe Bioware comments on it in a few days/weeks (or, more importantly, at least just see's that people care).

Again, please don't utilize this thread as a "What is canon, what is not canon" argument. There are MANY other threads where that is being discussed.

What I'm here to discuss is any concrete evidence or research that people see that answers that question: "Is SWTOR Legends now? Or is it canon?"

As I stated in other threads, I want to just mention these facts:

1) The first credit of the Lucasfilm Story Group was actually ON SWTOR. For Galactic Starfighter. If you run the credits for GSF you can actually see it there. This is the first credited note of the group of people who are involved in ALL canon. It cannot be canon if it didn't involve the story group (or if its not TCW, the 6 movies, Rebels, or the new Darth Maul comic).
2) On Friday, Jen who is a senior person dealing with Lucasfilm licensing fielded tweets about whether or not THIS or THAT is canon or legends. Everything was regarded as legends (everything, seriously) except for two things. The new Darth Maul comic which is taken from a TCW script. And when asked point blank about SWTOR the reply was "It is fuzzy. I cannot say." So take that for what its worth. The fact is SWTOR is NOT confirmed as Legends as of this time. It may be tomorrow. It could be that she just didn't know. But out of like tons and tons of tweets (at least like 50, ranging from Revan, KOTOR, Dath Bane, Darth Plaguies, etc) SWTOR was one of only two things that were not confirmed as Legends.
3) Just because KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 are Legends, it does NOT mean that SWTOR is legends. Truth is that Darth Bane the character is canon, since he's in canon stuff. But the Darth Bane trilogy is not. It could be that SWTOR is doing something similar, where it is going to be regarded as canon, but reference things from earlier games that are not canon. That's not weird. The films and TV shows do this all the time.
4) From what I can tell from the Cantina tours (and those preview flash drives they give out) we have lots of new story content coming. We just started a big story arc with 2.7. So technically the announcement they made on Friday: "All new Star Wars media will be handled by the story group and be considered canon," this TECHNICALLY means SWTOR has a good chance of being considered canon. Either SWTOR is exempt from that ruling, or maybe if it IS Legends maybe they only put out stuff like Galactic Strongholds which does not have story content. OR, (I hope) we get story content that is ACTUALLY approved by the Lucasfilm story group as canon. Holy crap, I hope.

Guys, this is kind of a big deal if you're a SWTOR fan. Because that means that the game you love may be one of the very few things that is still canon. I'm not assuming that. We do not know for sure yet. But so far, SWTOR has NOT been confirmed as Legends. And pretty much 99% of everything else has been. So that is interesting to me.

Even cooler, if it DOES turn out that SWTOR is canon, it means that you're playing the EARLIEST piece of canon in the NEW Star Wars era. But even more than that, it also means that we'd be playing upcoming content that is given approval or disapproval by the SAME PEOPLE who have a hand in the guiding of the newest movies, TV episodes, books, etc of Star Wars. It means the guys who know what happens in Episode 7 are involved in the new story content.

Again, this is only if we find out that YES, it is canon. I hope it is. Because I love the game.

I won't stop playing if its Legends. But right now, as it stands, there is NO official statement about whether SWTOR is Legends or not. In fact, when asked point blank, we got one of the very few "No comments" given. Plus, the fact that it has a Story Group credit already is very interesting. It could be just meaning something else. But its worth noting.

I would LOVE Bioware to address this eventually.
Bioware doesnt have to address anything, except laugh at the new owners and their executive board. The whole "Legends" thing is ridiculous. This is what is going on, the original script writer for the movie was booted, they had to write the script for the new movie from scratch. Which means Robert Iger isnt giving ANYONE any time to do their research. JJ went from Star Trek right into Star Wars, he didnt have much time either to do his research. Which means aint nobody got time to check for lore mistakes, and if they got someone paid to check, like George himself, aint no one going to listen to them, just tell them to say what ever justified the rushed movies. So they're doing this whole thing where they themselves have no idea what is canon or not. Because the SCRIPT for the new movie isnt even finished yet.

So let's all stop using the word "legends". Its just some corporate hype and a poor excuse to not research what is canon or not, because they have to rush the production of the movie. Disney can't make money from the Star Wars Universe. Robert Iger only sees money in the movie and merchandise for the movie. Everything else he sees as making money and marketing for others like Dark Horse. If Dark Horse makes a single penny from Star Wars over lore, that Disney can't make that penny from, Robert Iger sees it as a lost. Understand? This is how they think and manage their corporate conglomerates. ****, this is how the biggest vendors on the Galactic Trade Network see things too. This is how the big player capitalists see things.

"Legends" is like the corporate term "natural" in food products. It doesn't mean anything. There is no government law on how a corporation can use the word "natural" unlike the word "organic" which comes with a government seal. George Lucas sold Star Wars and Kathleen, JJ and Robert are just straight up rushing the project, with George's face saying what he is told to say. Legends is just a poor attempt to justify their lore mistakes. Corporates make this stuff up all the time. Like calling a beer "Ice" when in fact any beer can be served cold. Study corporate marketing, and this whole mess will become crystal clear like crystal clear "diet" soda.

There is no Legends. Don't matter who says it, license or not. They just don't have time to do their research. And George being a consultant doesn't really mean much. He's just a glorified employee of Robert Iger who has set the deadline and ain't trying to hear anything about Canon. Rob could give two about it. Everyone else involved includng George has to say things that coincide with Robert Iger's vision of his corporate marketing deadlines or get booted like the original script writer, who was writing the new movie even before Disney bought Star Wars. JJ didn't understand anything from the original script, because he just came out of the Star Trek universe, and never before picked up a novel, let alone a comic book of Star Wars. That's what the creative difference was about, between someone deep, deep in research (Michael Arndt) and someone who has not a clue or the time to get a clue (JJ). So now they're doing this mess.

THERE IS NO "LEGENDS".

Had they maybe chosen the path to take their time with the movie and its script, then yeah this would have some weight. But as of now, its just corporate marketing fluff, deadlines, poor excuses, and more nonsense just for a rushed movie.

I really hope people read this and understand. There is no Legends. What there is, is just known lore and lore mistakes. And it sounds like they want to prepare their target market for a ton of lore mistakes, to avoid a backlash from the fans, in the first week of the movie release. They know we will complain for years to come, but they want that first week to be complaint free. They're gambling on the wrong thing.
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LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
04.28.2014 , 10:16 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by HiddenPalm View Post
Bioware doesnt have to address anything, except laugh at the new owners and their executive board. The whole "Legends" thing is ridiculous. This is what is going on, the original script writer for the movie was booted, they had to write the script for the new movie from scratch. Which means Robert Iger isnt giving ANYONE any time to do their research. JJ went from Star Trek right into Star Wars, he didnt have much time either to do his research. Which means aint nobody got time to check for lore mistakes, and if they got someone paid to check, like George himself, aint no one going to listen to them, just tell them to say what ever justified the rushed movies. So they're doing this whole thing where they themselves have no idea what is canon or not. Because the SCRIPT for the new movie isnt even finished yet.

So let's all stop using the word "legends". Its just some corporate hype and a poor excuse to not research what is canon or not, because they have to rush the production of the movie. Disney can't make money from the Star Wars Universe. Robert Iger only sees money in the movie and merchandise for the movie. Everything else he sees as making money and marketing for others like Dark Horse. If Dark Horse makes a single penny from Star Wars over lore, that Disney can't make that penny from, Robert Iger sees it as a lost. Understand? This is how they think and manage their corporate conglomerates. ****, this is how the biggest vendors on the Galactic Trade Network see things too. This is how the big player capitalists see things.

"Legends" is like the corporate term "natural" in food products. It doesn't mean anything. There is no government law on how a corporation can use the word "natural" unlike the word "organic" which comes with a government seal. George Lucas sold Star Wars and Kathleen, JJ and Robert are just straight up rushing the project, with George's face saying what he is told to say. Legends is just a poor attempt to justify their lore mistakes. Corporates make this stuff up all the time. Like calling a beer "Ice" when in fact any beer can be served cold. Study corporate marketing, and this whole mess will become crystal clear like crystal clear "diet" soda.

There is no Legends. Don't matter who says it, license or not. They just don't have time to do their research. And George being a consultant doesn't really mean much. He's just a glorified employee of Robert Iger who has set the deadline and ain't trying to hear anything about Canon. Rob could give two about it. Everyone else involved includng George has to say things that coincide with Robert Iger's vision of his corporate marketing deadlines or get booted like the original script writer, who was writing the new movie even before Disney bought Star Wars. JJ didn't understand anything from the original script, because he just came out of the Star Trek universe, and never before picked up a novel, let alone a comic book of Star Wars. That's what the creative difference was about, between someone deep, deep in research (Michael Arndt) and someone who has not a clue or the time to get a clue (JJ). So now they're doing this mess.

THERE IS NO "LEGENDS".

Had they maybe chosen the path to take their time with the movie and its script, then yeah this would have some weight. But as of now, its just corporate marketing fluff, deadlines, poor excuses, and more nonsense just for a rushed movie.

I really hope people read this and understand. There is no Legends. What there is, is just known lore and lore mistakes. And it sounds like they want to prepare their target market for a ton of lore mistakes, to avoid a backlash from the fans, in the first week of the movie release. They know we will complain for years to come, but they want that first week to be complaint free. They're gambling on the wrong thing.
Wow.... Dude. It's all fiction. Calm the heck down. It's not like a Disney-LucasFilm "EU Removal Squad" will break down your door wearing Stormtrooper armor and Micky ears with flame throwers to destroy all your EU books, comics and games.
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BadCaneH's Avatar


BadCaneH
04.28.2014 , 10:21 AM | #26

LtGeneralGezlin's Avatar


LtGeneralGezlin
04.28.2014 , 10:27 AM | #27
CE Owner - The Gallifreyan Legacy - Squad 238 Tester
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Count_Mario's Avatar


Count_Mario
04.28.2014 , 11:45 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by LtGeneralGezlin View Post
It's not like a Disney-LucasFilm "EU Removal Squad" will break down your door wearing Stormtrooper armor and Micky ears with flame throwers to destroy all your EU books, comics and games.
They are already here...

ericpeterson's Avatar


ericpeterson
04.28.2014 , 02:34 PM | #29
Out of like 3 pages, I have like 4 posts that actually pertain to the topic at hand. If I want to read long posts about why Legends is great or stupid, or N-Canon, or S-Canon or F-Canon, I have like 800 other threads to go to.

Thanks to who posted about GSF and the 2 options. Good hypothesis. Thoughtful, mature, and not full of weird assumptions. And right in line with what I'm thinking. Man, I want an announcement. I just want to know.

You know, last night I thought of something.

Dark Horse has SW comics coming out until July at least. Those are all Legends. So it isn't like this cut-off took place immediately. MAYBE "all new material after 4/25/14 is canon" really means "all new material worked on after 4/25/14 is canon."

The fact that Dark Horse has new Legends stuff coming out through 2014 does screw up my hypothesis about SWTOR a bit. The difference is, of course, that the story group is not credited on Dark Horse stuff, and they are on SWTOR. However, clearly new Legends stuff IS indeed coming out. For awhile. I'll be curious to see if more solicitations occur after July.

I work in the comic industry, and the way that distribution works is in a 90-120 day timeline. Basically your stuff gets solicited around 90 days in advance, to allow for retail orders. So that stuff in July would have been submitted around April.

Plus, we've known Dark Horse is wrapping up its Legends content for awhile, due to their contract expiring at the end of 2014. So really, they are different than SWTOR. SWTOR (as far as I can tell) isn't shutting down anytime soon. Whereas Dark Horse isn't publishing NEW series at all, they are finishing off their Legends series.

DarthDymond's Avatar


DarthDymond
04.28.2014 , 03:28 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by ericpeterson View Post
Out of like 3 pages, I have like 4 posts that actually pertain to the topic at hand. If I want to read long posts about why Legends is great or stupid, or N-Canon, or S-Canon or F-Canon, I have like 800 other threads to go to.

Thanks to who posted about GSF and the 2 options. Good hypothesis. Thoughtful, mature, and not full of weird assumptions. And right in line with what I'm thinking. Man, I want an announcement. I just want to know.

You know, last night I thought of something.

Dark Horse has SW comics coming out until July at least. Those are all Legends. So it isn't like this cut-off took place immediately. MAYBE "all new material after 4/25/14 is canon" really means "all new material worked on after 4/25/14 is canon."

The fact that Dark Horse has new Legends stuff coming out through 2014 does screw up my hypothesis about SWTOR a bit. The difference is, of course, that the story group is not credited on Dark Horse stuff, and they are on SWTOR. However, clearly new Legends stuff IS indeed coming out. For awhile. I'll be curious to see if more solicitations occur after July.

I work in the comic industry, and the way that distribution works is in a 90-120 day timeline. Basically your stuff gets solicited around 90 days in advance, to allow for retail orders. So that stuff in July would have been submitted around April.

Plus, we've known Dark Horse is wrapping up its Legends content for awhile, due to their contract expiring at the end of 2014. So really, they are different than SWTOR. SWTOR (as far as I can tell) isn't shutting down anytime soon. Whereas Dark Horse isn't publishing NEW series at all, they are finishing off their Legends series.
I think that's basically correct, the new DH comics are kind of being "grandfathered in" for the cutoff - they are definitely new "Legends" content that will be released after the "going forward everything released will be Canon" announcement.

It's still something of an open question whether SWTOR will likewise be a "special case" or whether they are going to just say "screw it, it's so far removed from the movies there's no harm" and make it part of the Canon. I seriously doubt it will be Canon, and strongly believe it will be Legends, but there still has been no "official" word on the matter.

The GSF credit is coming up quite a bit, and maybe it has the significance that some people claim it does, but the Story Groups participation in GSF predated this whole new Legends system being set up. I'm really not convinced that work completed before there was even such a thing as the Legends/Canon dichotomy is proof-positive of where the game falls between them.

Up until the Story Group was formed, everything SWTOR did was getting approved by the Continuity Team at LucasArts (down to the pieces of armor they were allowed to add to the CM). As the Story Group was formed, it probably made sense to give them them the responsibility for that approval process, even as the details of what was going on with the EU as a whole was still being worked out.
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