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23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.26.2014 , 10:38 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Danylia View Post
This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"
This would be a great idea but it would be put high in lethality probably in the lethal purpose talent just so conc can't get it because then it would become too powerful in PVE because getting an extra lacerate every 10 sec. It would also probably change the PVE spec from 3/36/7 to 5/36/5 or 7/36/3 toget either the extra energy on adrenalin probe or the extra dmg reduct, but I'm so down for this idea

wishihadaname's Avatar


wishihadaname
04.27.2014 , 12:12 PM | #22
I'm not expert on PVE but I have played a ton of PVP as a lethality operative and have been playing lethality in pvp since launch. I think I can claim with a fair bit of certainty to be an expert at the spec and am one of the few on my server who can actually pull off the spec well (the other I know of being VPS, were both on Jedi Covenant).

Here is how I see it: Operatives have several fundamental design problems.
-We start off a fully ranged spec but as we level we become more and more melee. Its awkward the whole time.
-Cover is a fundamental class mechanic that becomes progressively more useless as we level (you use it a ton early on, then it starts becoming more and more of a burden than a utility)
-We being NOTHING to the table in terms of group utility. Infiltrate is fun for sneaking past adds in an FP but is never a game changer and is difficult to pull off.
-We are a melee class but are squishier than any other class in the game.
-Our shortcomings are "compensated" for by being able to self heal. This is impossible to do in ranked and a detriment to your team in 8v8.

The way I see it, operative needs to either become a true melee or a true ranged class. Our current status as a self healing hybrid of the two is simply bad design.

The way I see it lethality should become a full range spec that doesn't rely on stealth, and concealment should be given further evasive, field control, and rapid regeneration abilities (as these are what define the spec).

edit: here are the questions that i'de pose based on this:

PVP:
Concealment: what do the devs envisions the role of concealment operatives is? Do they see this spec as sufficient in this role? How does the off healing utility for which the operative pays so dearly tie into this spec? On what grounds should a group bring a concealment operative when a deception assassin has the same role but does it better in every way?

Lethality: Lethality is a spec that is forced into melee range because of one thing. Shiv. This move is central to the spec but creates a wierd duality where lethality plays entirely like a ranged/skirmish spec that hovers around 10m from the target except its entire rotation is tied to a single melee move. The closest parallel, the pyrotech powertech is also a skirmish range dot based fighter but they can get their critical procs from 10m. Why was lethalities critical proc tied to a melee move, could/should this be changed, and if so would the devs be willing to add the (now 100%) fatality proc to weakening blast and the TA generator to sever tendon? Specifically would the following changes be reasonable: sever tendon now has a 6s cooldown in lethality spec (tier 3 talent) and generates a TA. Shiv no longer generates a TA (same talent). Weakening blast now procs fatality 100% of the time and also generates a TA.
-Dimitri Dolohov, lvl 55 Lethality OP. Toxic personality (Retired until viable again)
-Sgt. Amit Dolohov, lvl 55 Gunny Mando,. Rifle wielding hipster.
I'de rather lose a real fight than win via premade.

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.27.2014 , 09:21 PM | #23
I would also like to bring up how lack luster our stim boost is. It's not very useful as an energy regen skill and isn't really an offensive cd because it gives one free TA which isn't completely game breaking

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
04.28.2014 , 03:54 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by wishihadaname View Post
Specifically would the following changes be reasonable: sever tendon now has a 6s cooldown in lethality spec (tier 3 talent) and generates a TA. Shiv no longer generates a TA (same talent).
While I would be 100% for this, there are additional factors to be considered:

- Sever Tendon tickles, while Shiv does "decent" damage. Simply replacing the latter with the former would mean a notable DPS loss for Lethality, and buffing Sever Tendon would (over?)buff Medicine and Concealment as well.
Solution: Add a damage increase to Sever Tendon to the same new talent which lowers its cooldown/gives TA granting ability.

- Surgical Strikes is talent in Concealment tree which almost every Lethality Operative takes. Removing Shiv (and partially Backstab) from Lethality rotation would mean further DPS loss due to this talent now being useless.
Solution: Same as above, plus further changes which make Overload Shot a solid replacement of Backstab (in Lethality tree; for example a talent - Cut Down(?) - which gives Sever Tendon a proc granting Overload Shot free of energy, internal cooldown 12 seconds)

- The PVE DPS Operative set bonus grants +15% to Shiv critical chance; removing Shiv from Lethality rotation = yet again DPS loss, and zero particularly useful set bonus.
Solution: Don't know (There are already classes like Snipers who have subpar set bonuses though)

- Fatality has to be adjusted, simple change; Hit and Run suddenly becomes an interesting kiting tool, since the effective range is now 4-10m - would it need some further rebalancing?

EDIT: But since the thread is about questions, it could be formulated like this:
Lethality is currently torn between long/medium/short ranges. Are there any plans, or possibility, to make it a true medium (10m) range specialization, perhaps via utilizing the medium range tools the Operative already has, like Sever Tendon and Overload Shot?
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.

quantez's Avatar


quantez
04.28.2014 , 04:22 AM | #25
Why not give weakening blast a 100% proc to fatality? Get rid of the RNG, procs from 10m, and the dps gain/loss is almost zero.

About our questions: From a dps perspective, i think we are fine in pve, but i am not a progression raider.

In PvP, we should be slippery. But almost every other class has the same amount of escapes (rolls, leaps, forcespeed, cloaks/camouflages, hydr. overrides) etc. while having more defensive cooldowns. I think this should be adressed.

Wildcard: I want my KD back!
I have a bad feeling about this

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.28.2014 , 06:49 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by quantez View Post
why not give weakening blast a 100% proc to fatality? Get rid of the rng, procs from 10m, and the dps gain/loss is almost zero.it would be a dps increase because the players trying to maximize their dps in situations like progression raiding or in high level pvp will still be able to yo-yo back and forth to get the shiv proc and to get the ta because weakening blast has a cool down of 15 seconds and fatality has a 10 second icd so that means theres 5 seconds of time that shiv could proc it which would be beneficial to you because then you get your fatality earlier. Also would this mean that weakening blast still grant a tactical advantage or will it simply give you the proc because cull is unusable with our a ta so you would still need to keep going in back and forth to get your tactical advantage. Also i may be wrong i cant remember the actual time but tactical advantages last 15 seconds which is the cd on weakening blast so you would have to go through the self torture of changing your rotation to accommodate for this, its possible dont get me wrong but very painful.

about our questions: From a dps perspective, i think we are fine in pve, but i am not a progression raider.

In pvp, we should be slippery. But almost every other class has the same amount of escapes (rolls, leaps, forcespeed, cloaks/camouflages, hydr. Overrides) etc. While having more defensive cooldowns. I think this should be adressed.i think that the manipulation of stim boost in every tree or atleast in conc and lethality to be more of an effective cool down would be very nice. Conceptually it makes sense on both factions too because for the scoundrels its pugnacity which is a fighting will/instinct. Stims are used to heighten your reflexes and awareness and if you are pugnacious then you have essentially an adrenalin rush which heightens your combat skills and reflexes as well. Making talents that while stim boost and pugnacity are active our chance to dodge and or resist attacks could go up (talents could be something such as "pain inhibitors" or "shrug it off" while stim boost/pugnacity are active your dodge and resist chance are increased by X) or you could give straight damage reduct but that doesnt go with the "slippery" theme we apparently have.... Hmmm i think im going to make a post in the pvp forums asking this question to everyone

wildcard: I want my kd back!sentiment felt by all operatives and most people i know in my guild and most pvp guilds. I think its safe to say that everyone thought that this was a pretty useless change and very unfair to us because of the assassin change. Some players i know in pvp guilds that dont play operatives have said "if youre a good player fighting a bad, youll win every time. If youre a good player fighting a decent player you should come out on top a few more times than you will lose. If youre good/great fighting a competent player youre going to lose many more times than youll win and thats some serious bull **** right there because its not just one particular class thatll do that to you its the majority of classes versus you.

snave's Avatar


snave
04.28.2014 , 07:59 AM | #27
Updated first post with questions. Yes I'm aware that the wildcard question reads like it's actually 10 questions.

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.28.2014 , 09:46 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Updated first post with questions. Yes I'm aware that the wildcard question reads like it's actually 10 questions.
Gasp is the gosh darn snave going to attempt a cashology reborn and ask 20 questions and disguise them as 1!?!? 0.0'

bobo_fett's Avatar


bobo_fett
04.28.2014 , 10:48 AM | #29
We felt this topics shows that Operative community is just as strong as ever , so we mentioned this topic on our on our Episode 33 of our podcast. Sorry snave I couldn't remember your name at the time of recording, somehow your name got left out of my show notes but we wanted to give a big thanks to you and the community for stepping up.

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
04.28.2014 , 11:06 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Updated first post with questions. Yes I'm aware that the wildcard question reads like it's actually 10 questions.
I don't disagree with the questions, quite the reverse. That said ... they seem too broad and generic to me. Which may be good on one side, if they'll lead to comprehensive answers covering many points - but I'm afraid they will instead lead to equally broad and generic answers, way too much fluff and not enough meat.

I understand there is a lot of stuff in (desperate) need of discussion. However, I'd love to see the questions to be as much specific as possible - they are called top 3 questions after all - in hope to obtain a specific answers on at least some issues, instead of a "we'll see" reply on all of them.
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.