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23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
04.25.2014 , 02:18 PM | #11
hidden strike should at least interrupt casts and channels

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
04.25.2014 , 03:22 PM | #12
Probably poking a sleeping beast here but I want them to do something interesting to medicine. Not to diminish the dps concerns but it's all anyones talking about and we have 3 questions to ask.

We're naturally very strong in pvp and the raw numbers carry over well to pve granted, been that way since 1.2.
It is isn't performance or strength that breeds my concern though.

We're boring.
Don't misunderstand, I still love healing on my operative but mechanically we are obnoxiously simple and we only seem to be getting more so if recent trends are any indication. More dependence on instant hots, more dependence on spamming surgical probes. No new heals since launch, a cooldown on infusion to promote even more surgical probes.
No real interaction between abilities or ways to play them off each other.

It's making us very samey which in turn is making us harder to balance. Can't exactly inch away from surgical probe when it's 50% of our globals.
Then we end up with weird designs like having two procs on separate ICDs that do the same thing rather than a proc that actually changes up gameplay.

So I guess the question would be is the any hope of a healing rework to make us a class with a bit more depth?

Despite how well the AC performs I'm beginning to feel like my level 30 alt mercenary has a more robust and interesting healing toolkit than my level capped, raid geared operative.
That feels weird.
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 03:38 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by CaptainApop View Post
Despite how well the AC performs I'm beginning to feel like my level 30 alt mercenary has a more robust and interesting healing toolkit than my level capped, raid geared operative.
That feels weird.
I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm going to ignore medicine, certainly wasn't my intention to do that so sorry if it came across that way.

From speaking to PvP and PvE players the message I'm getting is that Operative heals are performing well in both aspects of the game and I'm not sure bioware would look to redesign a whole spec that's performing well and is considered "balanced" in order to add some spice to it. Maybe in an expansion when they can introduce new mechanics but I'm not sure how they would do it otherwise.

CaptainApop's Avatar


CaptainApop
04.25.2014 , 04:21 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm going to ignore medicine, certainly wasn't my intention to do that so sorry if it came across that way.

From speaking to PvP and PvE players the message I'm getting is that Operative heals are performing well in both aspects of the game and I'm not sure bioware would look to redesign a whole spec that's performing well and is considered "balanced" in order to add some spice to it. Maybe in an expansion when they can introduce new mechanics but I'm not sure how they would do it otherwise.
Nah didn't mean to imply anything Snave, just referring to the vibe I get from the forums. Medicine only seemed to come up when people want to have it nerfed but the way it is now you couldn't do that even if it were warranted.

Reason I'm concerned mostly is an expansion came and went and we didn't really see any increase in complexity or meta-gaming on the healing scene.
I actually remember when they used to take weekly questions and the healing forum were constantly trying to get them to address the mechanical dullness. They never really did and a lot of those folks are gone now =/

Your right though, an expansion would be the time to do it and we have one coming up so who knows.
"I bind kolto probes to Q, partially for the convenience but mostly for the irony"

Subterfuge legacy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd

Aikion's Avatar


Aikion
04.25.2014 , 04:37 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
For me it's a relatively simple thing to check, if X class is picked above Y class consistently for the same role then balance does not exist. From there you work out exactly why class X is being picked and look to fix that in order to create functional balance. The easiest way for me to ascertain why operatives are being benched is to ask those people making those decisions (ranked team leader and raiding guild officers) and find out the reasons why. Hopefully this will result in a level, honest and effective method for us to tell the devs exactly what they need to do in order to keep the class in line with others.
Wall-O-Text Incoming!

In 2.7 I switched from Scoundrel to my Gunslinger for Progression Operations. This was a hard decision. As I love playing my Scoundrel (and my mirror Operative). My Scoundrel has been my main since Early Access. And, everything that I've unlocked in Collections is and will always be unlocked on my Scoundrel. That said Scoundrels have some pretty big drawbacks in PvE that I just couldn't ignore anymore.

1. Gap Closing sucks
This was a more prominent concern prior to 2.7, but it's still relevant. Before 2.7 we had simultaneously one of the best and worst movement enhancing abilities in the game. Exfiltrate/Scamper was nigh unusable due to it's energy cost when you needed to use it, and almost game-breaking when you could afford to spam it. We also lack the ability, before and after 2.7, to effectively gap close opponents on different levels from us. (e.g. Opponents on the upper levels of the original Huttball Arena from the lower areas.

With 2.7 came the new and improved Exfiltrate/Scamper. It had most of it's negatives removed: energy cost, distance reduction on slow, and the randomness of the talented upgrades to it. In fact, the upgraded Quickening/Scurry talent in Lethality/Dirty Fighting changes how I play that tree in most aspects of the game. Concealment/Scrapper got a little bit of a Faustian deal with it's talent upgrade to Shadow Operative Elite/Slippery Devil. These talents lost their 50% chance to cleanse otherwise un-cleansable DoTs (with a 15s cooldown mind you). Trading it for 50/50 odds of completely negating incoming Force/Tech attacks while rolling and 85/15 odds of dodging Ranged/Melee Attacks at the same time. All in all the changes made were unexpectedly insightful.

The main sticking point after 2.7 for me was that it still requires 2 GCDs for less effect than a single Leap or Covered Escape/Hightail It. Which mainly affects Conc/Scrap spec. An acceptable solution would be to shift some of the distance from second roll into the first roll via a 20+ point deep Conc/Scrap talent. That way the same overall range covered doesn't change, and the need for the second roll is reduced in some situtations.

All things considered, we are not worst class at gap closing. That honor is reserved for Powertech/Vanguard DPS. Though they make up for it in one respect, by having 100% knockback/knockdown/root/slow resistance while using Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line. And suffer to a lesser degree when facing opponents that are on different levels, as they can pull them to them in most cases. It still sucks more to try and gap close on them.

tl;dr Exfiltrate/Scamper is good, but situationally can be bad. Also no way to quickly gap close opponents on different levels.

2. Melee are punished far too often
It's hard to think of a boss fight in PvE where melee aren't punished for just trying to do their job. Mainly they are punished by taking more unavoidable AoE damage than Ranged DPS. Due in part to mechanics designed to thwart stacking of players in melee-range of the boss. They also suffer when rapidly swapping/chasing targets. Not to mention mechanics that require melee to run out and sit on their hands or those that knock them back. Overall it requires much more effort, for the same net effect, to play a melee DPS, than to play a ranged one.

Again, we aren't the worst in this regard. But, we lack some of the tools other classes get passively to deal with these mechanics. In large part, I think, due to our ability to off-heal.

3. Lack of Emergent Gameplay and Group Utility
This is a tough one, but we just lack many abilities that bring unique gameplay possibilities. And, the major one we do have: Disappearing Act/Revive (Dirty Rezzing) is practically impossible to achieve in most fights. We did get 50/50 invulnerability to Exfiltrate/Scamper in 2.7, but that's too much of a gamble for me.

Whereas my Gunslinger potentially brings:
  1. Cover Pulse/Pulse Detonator
  2. 30m range Leg Shot root (especially good for Brontes)
  3. Entrench/Hunker Down protection from physics and stuns
  4. Covered Escape/Hightail It invulnerability while rolling (especially good for Brontes)
  5. Engineering/Saboteur Rollbanging
  6. Ballistic Shield/Scrambling Field for protecting your group members

Just two days ago I saved a fellow DPS in NiM Grob'Thok who had aggro from an Ugnaught by rooting it, rolling to it, and knocking it back into the fire. Which is something you just can't do with many other classes. Operatives/Scoundrels, I feel, lack many the tools other classes have like: knockbacks, knockdowns, long range roots/mezzes, AoE stuns that don't break on damage, % damage mitigation abilities, instant gap closers like Force Leap, and physics/snares/CC protection abilities.

While I personally would like to see some of these tools added Operatives/Scoundrels. I understand the need for balance among classes and creating a unique feel/playstyle for each one. So, I honestly have no idea where to start, but that's my reasoning behind switching.

Edit: Oh and that damn facing requirement on Back Stab/Back Blast. If I've got aggro on something it's just too punishing, and screws everything up.
aikiwoce
Jeddit - r/swtor

snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 05:13 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Aikion View Post
Wall-O-Text Incoming!
.
Thanks for your input, some very valid points in here.

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.26.2014 , 12:29 AM | #17
yeah the healing rotation is pretty boring, ive literally fallen asleep behind my keyboard while doing our rotation. it could use some spice but at the moment itll do because as for mentioned we are currently really strong healers and if we get any sort of buffs or new abilities it would make us abit over the top and put us deep in nerf bat territory. I think we can ask if there are any changes planed for our healing tree to make it more interesting because it hasnt had any significant change for most of the game.

I would like to see an improvement to kolto probe just so it is a more useable heal for the whole group mid fight in a raid and even mid fight in a warzone because the set up time taking 3 seconds is too much for a HoT even if it is the strongest HoT in the game because if there is any sort of heavy damage coming then the person will most likely be dead in that time or very low on life. The way i see it as is Kolto Probe is more a tank key dps(someone taking adds or that i know will be jumped first in a RWZ) heal. But any change like this will come with what ever expansion is coming out next because there would be too much balancing needed to make everything fair with all the healers.

The question could be stated as such

"Operative healing has undergone very little changes since the launch of the game with the most notable changes being a 3rd stack of TA reduced cost to kolto probe and the change to surgical probe. While other classes have had new skills added or new talents affecting abilities such as their knock back giving a heal the operative has not. For the veteran players this makes the healing rotation very boring since it has not changed in almost 2 years. Are there any future changes to the Operative healing tree that would add more "flavor" to it or will it stay generally the same. If any changes are to be made how would they come, in way of a new skill in the tree or manipulation of a current talent in the tree"?

Danylia's Avatar


Danylia
04.26.2014 , 01:35 AM | #18
Wildcard question:
Many classes and specializations had recently changed their (more or less crucial) procs from random to guaranteed. Are there any plans to do the same with Fatality? (while keeping the internal 10 seconds cooldown, of course)

PVP question:
I don't PVP, so I'll pass this one

PVE question:
This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"
Quote: Originally Posted by Rafkin View Post
Last nights group finder was a mess. The short version is that two of the people were really bad but the tank was pretty good. After we called it I asked the tank if he wanted to queue up with me. He said "I'm eleven and I have to go to bed".
The one guy who knew what he was doing was eleven years old.

Swatchie's Avatar


Swatchie
04.26.2014 , 01:48 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Danylia View Post
Wildcard question:
PVE question:
This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"
That is a good question and a darn good suggestion. They can easily put that in for a point build I would think.

I stopped doing PVE as the repetition got too boring. So I have nothing to bring up there.

For PVP it has already been covered. Knockdown on Shoot first needs to come back.

My wildcard question goes pretty far a field I think. When are you going to bring back Ranked 8v8. 4v4 ranked is boring and cant stand doing them. Trying to build a team to go after ranked and working with your friends was awesome. I was able to build strong bonds with people doing this. So my question would be something like Why did you get rid of them, and when will you bring htem back? 4v4 deathmatch is not that fun.

Thank you for all your effort in this Snave. Much appreciated!
Sanitary 55 Scoundrel. Duchi 55 Gunslinger. Construction 55 Vanguard Tank. Faxx 55 Sage Heals. Rolling 55 Pyrotech. Foil 55 Sorc heals/dps. Wax 55 Guardian Vigi.
New toons : Copy 51 Shadow, Blue-Print 20 something Mando. Print 13 or so Sent, Oragami some level Operative. Butcher somehow a Mara.

snave's Avatar


snave
04.26.2014 , 06:00 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Swatchie View Post
My wildcard question goes pretty far a field I think. When are you going to bring back Ranked 8v8.
If you listen to episode 3 of my show you'll hear how strongly I felt about the removal of ranked, you'll also hear the mara class rep Gudarz offer to use one of his questions to ask the same thing. His approach received a very hostile response from the marauders plus bioware have said numerous times they have no intention of reintroducing ranked 8v8.

I totally agree with your sentiment mate, truly I do but I'd be wasting a question asking that. However, I'm sure I'll be able to work something in somewhere about it Have faith.

Quote: Originally Posted by Danylia View Post
This is more a suggestion/subjective feeling than a question. Sever Tendon is a really cool move (subjective part) but used almost exclusively in PVP. There were several suggestions regarding it in the brainstorming thread, notably ones which proposed to create a talent which gives Sever Tendon the ability to grant TA - which could partially solve Lethality's half meele/half ranged duality. So I guess the question would be "are there any changes in plan which would make Sever Tendon desirable in PVE?"
Love this idea.