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23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
23/5 Operative Class Rep Questions
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snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 01:56 AM | #1
Here are the 3 class representative questions, I've moved them to the first post for clarity. Please feel free to read through the whole thread to go over the discussion had and further reasoning behind these ones being selected.

Based on the proposed PTS changes I've updated the questions below as several of the points raised have already been addressed - for the basis of these questions I'm going to assume that the PTS changes will make it to live as I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

I'd like to add here how disappointed I was that the devs on the PTS forum didn't feel that operatives were worthy of having a thread opened to discuss what they were proposing. Whilst I feel the changes being made are a step in the right direction you can only be disheartened when a class so desperately in need of attention is treated (again) like a second class citizen.

Also I'd like to sincerely thank everyone who contributed on this thread. Despite our dwindling population we've banded together to create a great community, I would recommend that you read through the entire thread if you get the chance as there are a lot of great people wanting their voices to be heard.

I've spoken again with raid leaders / ranked team leaders to get their input on the proposed changes and whether or not it would make any difference to their composition choices.

PVE:

After speaking with raid leaders regarding the class and the changes it seems like they would be more comfortable bringing along a concealment operative now but they would have to see how they performed in a live environment before committing.

The AOE reduction is universally considered a positive move and the 20% on demand damage reduction seems to be well received although all I spoke to felt that it was very week considering the length of the cooldown.

One factor that was brought up again was the lack of raid utility and lack of AOE pressure (even from lethality).

Lethality also suffers from being a "mid" range class with them having no reliable way of generating TA without running in to shiv. This makes the rotation some what clunky and awkward.


Possible solutions to this that were given to me were:

  • Weakening Blast now generates a Tactical Advantage to allow lethality to periodically generate a TA from distance

  • Increase Operative damage from moves like Fragmentation Grenade and Orbital Strike to bring AOE in to line

  • 10% stacking damage reduction based on damage received for Lethality

  • Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment

  • The free Kolto Infusion for lethality to be used without triggering the GCD

  • Incorporate the 20% damage reduction in to the “Ghost” talent (6 second duration)

  • Infiltrate is virtually useless in a PvE environment, by adding something else to the field such as +X% crit / damage / healing it would instantly provide us with some real raid utility and also make this ability relevant (this also applies somewhat to PvP)

    I'd also like to point out that most of these changes would greatly help in PvP also.



Whilst the proposed changes are a step in the right direction; could you please tell us the reason behind the decisions you made, what you plan on doing to bring DPS based operatives in to line with regards to raid utility and what you plan on changing with Lethality in order to make it more favourable.



PVP:

The proposed PTS changes will certainly go part way to making us more viable in ranked PvP however other classes will still be picked above us even after these changes. Madness assassins and Deception assassins were all given to me as superior choices (especially madness if the PTS changes go live) which means we are taking one step forward and two steps back.

After speaking with ranked team leaders the general consensus was that DPS operatives would still not be viable for a ranked situation. With the 20% reduction being on a very long cooldown and not usable during a stun operatives are still considered a weak choice and will still die quickly when focused.

The only competitive form of PvP in this game is ranked arena where “being slippery” and “running away” are not viable strategies. Every other DPS class in the game has the ability to survive longer than operatives whilst still being effective and doing damage.

We would all greatly appreciate it if you stopped referring to “running away” as a viable defensive strategy – it is not effective to run away in arena vs a competent team, it exposes us as a poor tactical choice for a spot versus a class that has enough survivability to keep themselves alive and still produce damage and it is not the point of a death match style arena to run away constantly.

Running away to heal in normal PvP is usually slower than just dying and running back, assuming of course that cloaking screen actually removes you from combat so you can heal, that you have no dots on you that will break stealth / keep you in combat and that no one stops our 2.5 second cast.

If you would like to reintroduce ranked 8v8 where gamesmanship and tactics were more important your “running away” strategy would be slightly more viable although I doubt anyone would pick us over Assassins (again) due to them having greater survivability (still), utility and far more reliable burst.

There are also zero changes to Lethality so it looks like they'll have to sit out another season if that's the spec the player wants to use.

Possible solutions to this that were given to me were:

  • Cloaking screen cooldown to decrease as damage is taken

  • Evasive Imperative / Chem-resistant Inlays to be moved from the Medicine tree in to Lethality / Concealment

  • Countermeasures (or other ability) now also decreases stun duration by 50%, can be used whilst stunned

  • Revitalizers able to be used during stuns

  • Incorporate the 20% damage reduction in to the “Ghost” talent (6 second duration)



Can you please explain to us how you find it acceptable that DPS operatives have been excluded from ranked PvP since its creation, can you also let us know why you think the upcoming changes to concealment will be enough to warrant a spot in ranked PvP and why you have completely neglected Lethality? Please bear in mind that most teams have already declared they will still not take a DPS operative as part of their team.



Wildcard:

Quality of life:

There have been several changes to Operatives recently that have seriously diminished the quality of life of the class; in addition to quit a lot of pre-existing ones. For you convenience I've listed them below (please note the list below has several rhetorical question placed in them, the actual question is the last one):

  • The removal of crouch preventing leaps / pulls was intended to reduce the defensive capabilities of Medicine spec operatives but in fact harmed Lethality and Concealment more. Would it be difficult to build this in to a top talent in those trees?

  • It was stated that operatives were never intended to use cover as a mechanic, if this is the case why do we still have abilities tied in to using cover? It seems to make no sense and removing explosive probe's crouch requirement would certainly make gameplay "smoother".

  • The removal of roll cleansing DOTs now means in order to successful use cloaking screen we have to also use evasion, would it be possible to build a cleanse in to cloaking screen; once again only available to the DPS trees, or do you feel the need to use both cool downs is appropriate?

  • Poor hit box detection in PvP and mobs auto facing us in PvE means backstab is very difficult to pull off, especially while levelling. It seems you've acknowledged this to some extent with recent changes but would it be possible to either remove the positional requirement via talents or fix your game engine to properly reflect positions of players during PvP combat?

  • Leaving combat seems to be on an almost random timer. Sometimes I'm able to leave combat and restealth after a few seconds of inactivity, other times I'm stuck in combat despite having killed all the enemy players around me. Frequently I’ll die and remain in combat for more than 10 seconds and during a recent game I was stuck in combat and unable to restealth despite being inactive (no dots) for over 1 minute. Is this an intentional design and would it be possible to introduce a fixed duration until you left combat that actually worked?

  • Lethality is still suffering from the same RNG that you removed from Concealment with the changes to Laceration. This could be addressed by giving weakening blast 100% proc rate and / or allowing TA’s to be generated via Sever Tendon / Overload shot (with an internal cool down).

  • This was also asked previously but seemingly ignored. Our set bonuses are virtually useless. You previously stated that set bonuses were only meant to provide a small damage increase but our set bonuses do not even provide this.

    When compared to other classes they get:
    • Powertech: 15% crit change to rail shot
    • Assassin: Increase recklessness changes by 1 and reduce cooldown by 15 seconds
    • Jugg/Mara: Increase all damage by 10% for 5 seconds after leap

    We get:
    • 5 energy

    Pretty big difference in those set bonuses and I wouldn't consider any of those "a slight DPS increase", they're significant. Reintroducing the 15% crit to back stab or copying the PvE set bonus would rectify this with minimal effort.

  • The "roll bug" that freezes us in place when knocked back during a roll is still in the game. Although it occurs less often these days due to the new nature of exfiltrate it is still a game breaking bug and we would greatly appreciate it if you could let us know how exactly it occurs (so we can try to avoid it) and what you're doing to fix it.

    This could be solved by providing a brief window of root / knockback / pull immunity.

  • Whilst the community has tried to understand the removal of hidden strikes knock down there is no denying that we all miss that class defining animation. It would be greatly appreciated if you could reintroduce the animation for weak mobs in PvE only, this hurts nobody and would please many.

  • Revitalizers is currently bugged, if this is a talent that operatives will now be taking it's something that needs to be fixed.
    Quote: Originally Posted by Aikion View Post
    I keep bringing it up, but can never get a response on it. People assume that Stim Boost w/Revitalizers heals for 20% of your life over 15 seconds:

    (15 seconds /(ticks every 3 seconds)) = 5 ticks
    5 ticks * 4% health = 20% health

    But, Stim Boost's Revitalizer heal only heals 4 times, with the final tick not restoring health. So it's not a 20% heal, it's a bugged 16% heal. And, for some reason no one seems to care.

    Note: I've tested on both Operatives and Scoundrels, and they both have this bug.
    I've also tried this out and I can verify he is correct, there are only 4 ticks healing for 16%

After reading through these issues can you please let us know what you will be doing over the next few patches in order to increase our poor quality of life with in the game?




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snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 01:57 AM | #2
Hello there fellow operatives!

I recently started a thread regarding it being brought to light that our class rep had now left the game and we needed someone to compile our class concerns together in time for the next round questions. The criteria set by bioware states that in the event of the class rep leaving the role would defer to whoever came second or to the class mirror (Scoundrel) rep, unfortunately all of those players have quit the game too.

This is a great opportunity for us to voice our concerns and seeing as I've been incredibly vocal about our class balance for quite some time I desperately don't want us to miss out on this chance. I'd like to point out here that I'm not trying to usurp Scold from his position, he understands the variations of this class better than me and if he wants to return and take over these questions I'd be more than happy to let him do that.

If you take a look through the majority of threads on this forums you'll find people complaining about the class in some way, shape or form. I'm asking you all to now take those concerns and post them here in a constructive fashion so I can format them and pass them over. I am not an expert in Medicine, I'm not an expert in Lethality, I am an expert in getting sh*t done and frankly that's all that needs to happen here because the questions will be generated by you - the community.

Please visit this thread where bioware lay out what to expect from the class rep program and set your expectations realistically. I'd also like you to all prepare yourselves now to be told to "heal to full" or something equally as asinine, I'm sincerely hopeful that we'll get some decent answers here but Operatives are thin enough on the ground as it is and the last thing I want is for more people to quit because they're not happy with the answers given.

We have 3 questions to ask, one needs to be about PvE, one about PvP and then we have a free Wildcard question to ask about whatever we would like. What I would like you all to do is make a post below detailing whatever questions / queries / concerns / suggestions you have, then label it with the spec it concerns and whether it's a PvP / PvE / Wildcard question. I will then periodically update each category and ultimately compile them in to a question.

I plan on meeting with some members from top PvE guilds and PvP ranked teams over the next week to get their opinions on each spec and the class as a whole. I believe that getting the opinions of the people who ultimately decide how their raid / ranked team is composed will provide us with some further clarification as to where the classes strong points / weaknesses are and I'll update this thread with that once it's done.

This is our chance to get our voices heard, if you're reading this and you think that something needs to change then please post it, it's time to put up or shut up.


Edit: Updated the areas below with the feedback I have so far. These are obviously not the questions we'll be asking, these are talking points for us to base the questions around.

1. PvE

Medicine:
  • Considered a good choice for 16 and 8 man raid, no issues obtaining raid spots
  • Performs very well on parses coming in at forth overall
  • Can be "boring" to play due to reliance on surgical probe
  • Generally considered "balanced"



Lethality:
  • Performs very well on parses and is the highest DPS on Torparse at the moment
  • Generally not brought along as a first choice in raids
  • Low raid utility
  • Survivability options makes other DPS classes a more viable choice
  • Marauders and Snipers preferred due to greater utility and survivability



Concealment:
  • Performs very well on parses and is the highest DPS listed on Torparse for the training dummy
  • Generally not brought along as a first choice in raids
  • Low raid utility
  • Low AOE ability
  • Shield probe ineffective in a raid environment
  • Survivability options makes other DPS classes a more viable choice
  • Marauders and Snipers preferred due to greater utility and survivability


2. PvP

Medicine:
  • Features heavily in ranked PvP (both arena and previously in 8v8 ranked)
  • Considered very good in warzones
  • Good survivability
  • Generally considered "balanced"


Concealment:
  • Virtually zero presence in ranked PvP of any type, ever
  • Good, but unreliable, burst
  • Roll change is considered a positive move
  • Shield probe buff was a step in the right direction
  • Poor survivability
  • Poor utility
  • Assassins generally considered to be a better version of the class in virtually all areas



Lethality:
  • Virtually zero presence in ranked PvP of any type, however some people have recently started to try it our since 2.7 changes
  • Good overall damage through DOTs and burst
  • Decent survivability through shield probe and free heal
  • DOTs are relatively easy to heal through or cleanse making some damage ineffective
  • Assassins generally considered to be a better version of the class in virtually all areas


3. Wildcard

  • Hidden Strike knock down removal considered a bad move by the vast majority of players
  • Removal of crouch providing leap / pull immunity has hindered concealment and lethality far more so than its intended target of Medicine
  • Roll no longer cleansing DOTs means operatives now have to rely on using evasion in order to use cloaking screen resulting in us having to use two cooldowns in order to escape
  • Terrible set bonuses provide nothing to the class
  • Hidden Strike no longer interrupting casts removes utility from concealment
  • Positional requirement for back stab is a pain due to mobs facing your constantly in PvE and poor hit box detection in PvP





.

Adaliaya's Avatar


Adaliaya
04.25.2014 , 02:06 AM | #3
This question is very generic but I want to know why does bioware give us tools to do something but give assassins tools to do same things even better? Are assassins only accepted stealt killers? If so what are we supposed to do?

Aikion's Avatar


Aikion
04.25.2014 , 02:13 AM | #4
I just submitted my own post within 15 minutes of you posting this. Great minds think alike it seems. I've remove the text from my post, and added the relevant parts to this post.

Back when the Class Representative program was started I created a few brainstorming posts for the Scoundrel Class rep. Here's my Scrapper (Concealment) post, and my Dirty Fighting (Lethality) post from the pre-2.5 days. We've seen a few patches since then, but a few concerns could still be valid.

Also here's the Top 3 Questions/Answers they put out before suspending the Class Rep program (in order of release):
  1. Sniper // Gunslinger
  2. Sentinel // Marauder
  3. Sorcerer // Sage
  4. Vanguard // Powertechs
  5. Juggernaut // Guardian
  6. Scoundrel // Operative
  7. Mercenary // Commando
And the one's they put out since resuming it (in order of release):
  1. Marauder // Sentinel
  2. Powertech // Vanguard
  3. Commando // Mercenary
That's a little bit of heavy reading for sure. But, the questions players asked and the responses we received should be considered for any question we might ask.

Here's my top 3 concerns/questions:
  1. Operatives (and Scoundrels) are one of two melee Advanced Class that doesn't have a 30% AoE reduction talent in any of our trees, and the only one that has no % damage reduction cooldown abilities. It almost feels like this is a holdover from the "engineered weaknesses" in certain specs, like the lack of interrupt on Mercenaries till 2.0. Can you inform us a little more about the design behind the active and passive Operative defensive abilities/talents, and share any changes we might look forward too?
  2. The facing requirement on Back Stab leaves you at a performance disadvantage in many PvE situations in Concealment spec. This was relaxed a little with the Jarring Strike change giving a small window of using Back Stab from any facing after using Hidden Strike. Any chance of re-purposing a talent into something similar to the Sorcerer's Wrath talent based around Shiv/Lacerate? (Where each use of the Shiv/Lacerate ability grants a stacking buff, which at 3-5 stacks removes the Facing requirement from Back Stab)
  3. Revitalizers was collaterally nerfed in 2.0 with the change to Stim Boost. It went from a constant 2% heal every 3 seconds as long as you maintained Stim Boost, to a 16% heal (The fifth tick is bugged and doesn't heal) on a 2 minute cooldown. Can we have the pre-2.0 functionality and healing percentage of Revitalizers back only changed to heal if you have any Tactical Advantage stacks instead?
aikiwoce
Jeddit - r/swtor

snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 02:27 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Aikion View Post
I just submitted my own post within 15 minutes of you posting this. Great minds think alike it seems. I've deleted my post, and added the relevant parts to this post.
Think this is more of a case of fools follow the same path Cheers for the input and lets hope more people get involved.

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.25.2014 , 03:32 AM | #6
1.PVE

I honestly can't think of any problems we have in PVE, right now we have very strong healers, arguably the best of for the recent buffs to mercs. we are very strong dps aswell conc and leth both pull very good numbers and I don't know any raid team that wouldn't take them for their damage. I am mainly a PVE and PVP healer(but I love our dps to death, gosh darn team wanting heals ) and the only thing I find remotely annoying would be the fact of needing to apply kolto probe twice on a target to get the maximum effect for healing. I always wished we could get it changed to 1 probe did the same as 2 but with an energy increase on it but that would break us completely (or maybe aoe kolto probe? heh now I'm just being silly but the thought amuses me) and I'm scared of the nerf bat coming to our heals.




2.PVP

Here is quite obvious it's our DPS' survivability. We lack any meaningful defensive cool downs which can keep us alive in any sort of sustained fight. Of all the melee classes we have the worst cool downs and lack the simplest of aoe dmg reducts which most every other melee class has. In my opinion some possible changes that could be made for conc are.
1. revitalizes could use a minor change so that it is the 20% self heal over a shorter duration to try and make the heal more worth while and appealing. A 20% self heal over 8-10 seconds or giving a immediate self heal but for slightly less would give conc more time to stay in a fight and give a bit of a cushion for healers to boost them back up.

2. Ghost has the same effect as dark swell out for assassins where ghost will now automatically be applyed upon leaving stealth and while ghost is active we receive 25% less damage. Especially with the new changes to jarring strikes a 6 second 25% dmg reduct when we leave stealth would greatly help not dying in seconds and after the 6 seconds are done we can re apply it with our normal sneak ability. This would also give a more "fair" playing ground with assassins who although wear light armor their decpt tree is filled with armor increases and damage reducts.

3. Shadow operative elite also gives aoe dmg reduct. This would work 2 fold because while we are forced to fight with in melee range we are prone to getting hit with stray aoe attacks, because of this our health can drop quite quickly. With aoe reduct it would give us a minor cushion and would also help with the strength of shield probe our "defensive" cool down. Abilities such as AP flame thrower, smash, death field and chain lightning( I believe) will be reduced and would make a 1v1 or group fight more viable.

For lethality, since it is not as prone to the aoe damage and such as conc is because of its yo yoing nature it can focus more on the dodge and resist aspect to give the "slippery" feel which we are supposed to have.

1. Move pin down into lethality. With the current change to jarring strikes we do not need 2 roots in the conc Terran with a root in the lethality tree they can now more properly kite a melee class with out having to use exfiltrate causing their gap closer/opener to be on cool down for when they might need it most.

2. Move flash powder up higher in the tree but increase accuracy reduct and make it apply to both force and tech. This would make us more difficult to hit as well as give lethality more group utility and make it more appealing to bring to a ranked warzone. Lethality through its talents and by play style is a more group oriented spec than conc.

3. Make combat stims now additionally increase damage reduction by X% or increase dodge AND resist chance by X% while stim boost is active. This would make for a relatively powerful defensive skill on a 1.5 minuet cd and one would either give us the damage reduct we need while the ladder gives us the "slipperiness" that bioware claims we have.



3.Wildcard

I would have to give this to our jarring strikes nerf or the lack of a true filler skill for lethality, but since we're doing very good numbers with both specs I lean towards the jarring strikes nerf. I shouldn't need to explain how this hurt our PVP presence for dps and has killed pretty much all of the utility of conc in arenas and warzones, with the loss of an interrupt and something that could knock a sniper out of cover for warriors to jump. Even if we can't get the stun back if we could get a interrupting effect and a 1.5 second decover effect that would be fine too.


Just remember bioware doesn't hate us they just love our heals so much that they're willin to beat our DPS to death with the nerf bat so they can get our green goo all over them


.

Haystak's Avatar


Haystak
04.25.2014 , 08:55 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Adovir View Post
1.PVE

I honestly can't think of any problems we have in PVE, right now we have very strong healers, arguably the best of for the recent buffs to mercs. we are very strong dps aswell conc and leth both pull very good numbers and I don't know any raid team that wouldn't take them for their damage. I am mainly a PVE and PVP healer(but I love our dps to death, gosh darn team wanting heals ) and the only thing I find remotely annoying would be the fact of needing to apply kolto probe twice on a target to get the maximum effect for healing. I always wished we could get it changed to 1 probe did the same as 2 but with an energy increase on it but that would break us completely (or maybe aoe kolto probe? heh now I'm just being silly but the thought amuses me) and I'm scared of the nerf bat coming to our heals.




2.PVP

Here is quite obvious it's our DPS' survivability. We lack any meaningful defensive cool downs which can keep us alive in any sort of sustained fight. Of all the melee classes we have the worst cool downs and lack the simplest of aoe dmg reducts which most every other melee class has. In my opinion some possible changes that could be made for conc are.
1. revitalizes could use a minor change so that it is the 20% self heal over a shorter duration to try and make the heal more worth while and appealing. A 20% self heal over 8-10 seconds or giving a immediate self heal but for slightly less would give conc more time to stay in a fight and give a bit of a cushion for healers to boost them back up.

2. Ghost has the same effect as dark swell out for assassins where ghost will now automatically be applyed upon leaving stealth and while ghost is active we receive 25% less damage. Especially with the new changes to jarring strikes a 6 second 25% dmg reduct when we leave stealth would greatly help not dying in seconds and after the 6 seconds are done we can re apply it with our normal sneak ability. This would also give a more "fair" playing ground with assassins who although wear light armor their decpt tree is filled with armor increases and damage reducts.

3. Shadow operative elite also gives aoe dmg reduct. This would work 2 fold because while we are forced to fight with in melee range we are prone to getting hit with stray aoe attacks, because of this our health can drop quite quickly. With aoe reduct it would give us a minor cushion and would also help with the strength of shield probe our "defensive" cool down. Abilities such as AP flame thrower, smash, death field and chain lightning( I believe) will be reduced and would make a 1v1 or group fight more viable.

For lethality, since it is not as prone to the aoe damage and such as conc is because of its yo yoing nature it can focus more on the dodge and resist aspect to give the "slippery" feel which we are supposed to have.

1. Move pin down into lethality. With the current change to jarring strikes we do not need 2 roots in the conc Terran with a root in the lethality tree they can now more properly kite a melee class with out having to use exfiltrate causing their gap closer/opener to be on cool down for when they might need it most.

2. Move flash powder up higher in the tree but increase accuracy reduct and make it apply to both force and tech. This would make us more difficult to hit as well as give lethality more group utility and make it more appealing to bring to a ranked warzone. Lethality through its talents and by play style is a more group oriented spec than conc.

3. Make combat stims now additionally increase damage reduction by X% or increase dodge AND resist chance by X% while stim boost is active. This would make for a relatively powerful defensive skill on a 1.5 minuet cd and one would either give us the damage reduct we need while the ladder gives us the "slipperiness" that bioware claims we have.



3.Wildcard

I would have to give this to our jarring strikes nerf or the lack of a true filler skill for lethality, but since we're doing very good numbers with both specs I lean towards the jarring strikes nerf. I shouldn't need to explain how this hurt our PVP presence for dps and has killed pretty much all of the utility of conc in arenas and warzones, with the loss of an interrupt and something that could knock a sniper out of cover for warriors to jump. Even if we can't get the stun back if we could get a interrupting effect and a 1.5 second decover effect that would be fine too.


Just remember bioware doesn't hate us they just love our heals so much that they're willin to beat our DPS to death with the nerf bat so they can get our green goo all over them


.
I like the post, but they want questions. Suggestions come after the question phase.
Airwolf -55-Scoundrel
Mcrose -55-Shadow
Makros -55-Marauder
Mac-Ros -55-Vangaurd

Adovir's Avatar


Adovir
04.25.2014 , 09:06 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Haystak View Post
I like the post, but they want questions. Suggestions come after the question phase.
PVE: no problems
PVP: bioware can we has survivability plx we have no dcds defensive talents and we're a melee class.
Wildcard: is there any way to get a stun effect on HS or can we at least get an interrupt and a cover breaker on it

In a nut shell

BobaFaceroll's Avatar


BobaFaceroll
04.25.2014 , 11:28 AM | #9
PvE: I think we're fine and I'm afraid to ask for a change anywhere...something will accidentally get nerfed in the process. Instead I will ask something that sort of ties in to my PvP question.

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins get to still put weak mobs on their face in PvE. This means they still get to see the animation they've grown to love since release. Operatives don't get to see it any more though...the knockdown has been completely removed. Can Operatives get the same treatment as Assassins and retain the ability to knock down weak and normal mobs in PvE?

PvP: I'd ask for more survivability but Bioware clearly does not know how to add it to the DPS trees without also adding it to healing Ops. It doesn't matter that we've made suggestions on how to do that, well, since forever...I have no faith it will happen. As such here is my PvP question.

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins had the knock down replaced with a Stun. This let them retain the same functionality as when Spike was a knock down. It still interrupts enemy actions and allows more control of the battle. As a bonus it now works around the effect of Hydraulic Overrides. Outside of missing the enjoyable animation the skill is actually better than it was before. Operatives on the other hand got their knockdown (from Jarring Strike trait) replaced with a root. This does nothing for an Operative compared to a stun, and is in now way an improvement to the trait. Can Operatives have the root effect on Jarring Strike replaced with a stun?. Aside: I could honestly care less about the one time, 10sec buff to use Backstab out of position. This was never an issue.

Wildcard: I like the recent changes to Lethality. Can we make one more and remove the randomness from the Fatality trait? One extra TA every 10 seconds is hardly game breaking when compared to how you can perform using the Concealment tree. It would amount to a slight DPS increase (would still be behind Concealment) and would be a nice QoL improvement.

snave's Avatar


snave
04.25.2014 , 02:04 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Adovir View Post
PVE: no problems
PVP: bioware can we has survivability plx we have no dcds defensive talents and we're a melee class.
Wildcard: is there any way to get a stun effect on HS or can we at least get an interrupt and a cover breaker on it

In a nut shell
I know you're making a joke here but to be honest this seems to be pretty much accurate.

Quote: Originally Posted by BobaFaceroll View Post
PvE: I think we're fine and I'm afraid to ask for a change anywhere...something will accidentally get nerfed in the process. Instead I will ask something that sort of ties in to my PvP question.

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins get to still put weak mobs on their face in PvE. This means they still get to see the animation they've grown to love since release. Operatives don't get to see it any more though...the knockdown has been completely removed. Can Operatives get the same treatment as Assassins and retain the ability to knock down weak and normal mobs in PvE?

Q: When you took the knock down away from both Operatives and Assassins things were handled differently for each class. Assassins had the knock down replaced with a Stun. This let them retain the same functionality as when Spike was a knock down.
I think some one is missing their knockdown! It's fair to say that most operatives are unhappy about the removal of the knockdown ability so it only seems right that it's brought up in some fashion.

Just to update you guys, I've spent some time today talking with some officers / raid leaders from "high end" PvE guilds in order to get their feedback on why they would / wouldn't take an operative with them. I'm just about to have a chat with some ranked PvP teams to get their feedback too then I'll update my original post to reflect what the current Pros and Cons of the class are, hopefully that will allow us to shape the questions more effectively.

I just wanted to touch on something very briefly, don't want to turn this in to a wall of text but I just wanted to explain my point of view on these question and what my approach will be. I'm a big believer in balance, if you've ever listened to my show or stream (sorry for those hours of your life you wont get back) no doubt you've heard me go on some form of rant about balance in this game.

For me it's a relatively simple thing to check, if X class is picked above Y class consistently for the same role then balance does not exist. From there you work out exactly why class X is being picked and look to fix that in order to create functional balance. The easiest way for me to ascertain why operatives are being benched is to ask those people making those decisions (ranked team leader and raiding guild officers) and find out the reasons why. Hopefully this will result in a level, honest and effective method for us to tell the devs exactly what they need to do in order to keep the class in line with others.