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Pulling before the tank


sanctified's Avatar


sanctified
04.21.2014 , 02:24 PM | #21
I don't care if DPS pulls ahead of me as long as we're heading in the same direction. Threat is something I can easily gain. There are only three things that DPS can do that will make me seriously consider leaving a party.

1. Pulling a second group while we're still fighting the first one. Don't do that. It's stupid.

2. Tunnel visioning elites and champions while there are sill normals and silvers walking around. Eat your veggies before you move on to dessert, please.

3. DPS-ing in a tank stance. If I have to tell a dps-er why this is stupid, then odds are he's no good anyway.
Playing since October 1st, 2011. Squad 238 for life.

wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
04.21.2014 , 02:30 PM | #22
This kind of stuff is why I don't heal or tank on tacticals anymore, it's a mess. I always queue as dps for that

On regular flahspoints, as a healer, if I see there we have Chuck Norris with the group, I'll stop putting hots on everybody, so if he pulls before tank, it's no matter, he dies or kills everything on his own. I won't become a target of everything else he's not "tanking"
If I'm tanking, it will depend on what the others do. If healer heals Chuck, I will watch and protect healer but I won't bother with the dps who started the pull. Don't pull it if you can't kill it. Only if it is too annoying I'll start a votekick


Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I'll admit, I've started pulls in KDY on my dps many times (note that I don't do this in other flashpoints).

I'll go where the group goes, so as not to leave 3 other people on their own, but I generally won't wait for the tank to initiate combat.

Scarlet, I get what you're saying about tactical being a training ground, but I disagree. The reason regular leveling is an ineffective training ground is that things are easy -- there are no significant consequences for the Zerg approach. It's the same thing with KDY.

Something like False Emperor is a much better training ground. The first pull is an excellent example. Don't follow kill order, don't use CC, don't focus target, and the group will have troubles. Of course, some ops-geared players can carry a bad pug through that pull, but it's still better training than KDY
Yeah, the only thing you can learn on KDY, if you didn't know it already, it's the meaning of the word "grind".
But there are other places, before False Emperor, that are bad for dps pulling before the tank, like all those pack of dogs in lowbie mando raiders, who can tear to shreds a dps in seconds (unless they are overleveled ), or a few in Cademimu.
But the lowbie flashpoints seem to be less played since KDY. I guess ppl will have to learn on 55 hm, lol

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
04.21.2014 , 02:41 PM | #23
I'm usually a control freak when it comes to tanking, mainly because I still don't feel as confident in that role as to be mellow about stuff going wrong and being able to compensate. I need my first hit to give me that head start.

that said, in tactical flashpoints, I only get pissy in 2 cases.

1. when we have no healer and overeager dps jumps before people had a chance to heal up between pulls. call me crazy but I hate pulling at less than full health, because accidents happen and it's easier to recover when you are not already half dead starting out
2. when they run off on their own to pull a completely different group, when we are already fighting something. bonus points for when they do so in a healerless group.

other than that? I'll tank whatever I can grab, if they want to hold the rest and kill it on their own? /shrug. as a healer, I can usually compensate for most of that. I'm used to healing multiple targets, even on lowbie healer toons.

but I DO appreciate groups that let me do my job, even in tactical flashpoints. it just makes the run feel nicer.

sanctified's Avatar


sanctified
04.21.2014 , 03:11 PM | #24
I'm a tank, and my sympathies lay with tanks for the most part, but I also completely understand the frustration of dealing with a slow/bad tank.

Story time:

I have years of experience on my Juggernaut, so I decided to make a guardian tank for my main republic character. After all, if I already have the skill set, why not use it again to make my alt's life easy, right?

Well, I surely had forgotten how much it sucks to tank with aJugg/ Guardian at a lower level. I have so much fun with my Jugg, that I've forgotten the dark times when I didn't have sweeping slash, an aoe taunt, or saber reflect. Starting over again was like learning how to type with three broken fingers, but I managed. I know all these flash point dungeons inside and out, and at the very least, it isn't hard to run around like a headless chicken hitting mobs with strike so that they leave your healer alone. Tanking ain't ****.

But, a problem my lowly guardian quickly began to encounter once he hit level 15 and earned his first taunt, were that other tanks, or rather people who THOUGHT they were tanks, were que-ing for dungeons, and getting in as dps because they had dps/tank clicked on their boxes. Apparently, this helps you get groups a little faster for some reason. I was always assigned as tank (got the shield icon and everything) because I made sure to uncheck that box as soon as I noticed it.

Anyway, these suckers ran wild trying to take over my groups. Poor jerks who thought Black Talon was the blueprint for how every FP run was supposed to be, and encouraging other similarly inexperienced dps to follow suit. I quickly found myself taking on the role of team dad for dozens of stupid noobies, gently explaining to them how Hammer station worked, and how you don't have to keep force leap on cooldown in order to be good at being a sentinel. It was real annoying, but let me tell you, man, the worst of the worst weren't sentinels and guardians: It was the damn shadows.

Wannabe shadow tanks were the worst. I mean it's bad enough that they wanted to be the tank when I was already doing it, but the fact that they almost universally sucked at it just made it SAD. They didn't use force breach, they'd spam their taunts and then just stand there, they didn't keep up their dark ward equivalent , they were just AWFUL. But they sure were good at using force wave to knock a bunch of enemies off me that I had nice and grouped up. Jerks.

Anyway, I qued in for a Mandalorian Raiders a couple days ago. I saw yet another wannabe shadow tank in combat stance taking up space in my group, but this one seemed different...he had a lot of health for one. Over 8k when he was only level 29. I did an inspect, saw his gear was good, and thought to myself that this guy probably knows what he's doing. I still didn't have challenging call yet, but I figured this guy would be doing force breaches all over the place, so why not just switch stances and let him tank? Why not? I asked if he wanted to tank, he said sure, so I backed off and let him roll. Guaranteed fast run, right? Let's do this thing, baby!

It was a friggen' nightmare.

He line of sight pulls EVERYWHERE (even though he was a shadow) he never used his dark ward, only used force wave for aoe threat, kept that dog boss real close to the damn dogs (we wiped the first time on it), and tried to use this super complicated kill order on the sith boarding party with what seemed like every single target mark he could find, but he tunnel visioned his targets and didn't put out any aoe threat, so naturally our healer kept dying. It got to the point where I rebelled, put my soresu form back on, and hijacked his group. He left in a real huff like a Prima Donna, talking crap about this is why people don't like tanking, and we should have respected him more, and I was left wondering if this guy ever got a nose bleed from all the paint thinner he was huffing. We cleared it with me tanking, naturally, and I learned a valuable lesson about being lazy. Or whatever.

So anyway, TLDR: Sometimes dps needs to take the group away from the tank. I read that enlisted men used to shoot officers in the back that kept getting them killed, so it's not like losing control of an FP is the worst thing that happened to a person ever.
Playing since October 1st, 2011. Squad 238 for life.

IsserWoloch's Avatar


IsserWoloch
04.21.2014 , 10:03 PM | #25
When I tank my goal is for the group to never leave combat, I aim to be pulling the next group while the dps finish off the champs from the last one. Going from a pace like that to what tanks usually pull at, I've just started doing pretty much the same thing on my marauder as I level. Assuming the healer is actually at the keyboard, its never been a problem. Hell, even when the healer is afk we can usually clear trash.

If some derp is wiping groups, sure, he's a *******. But expecting people to slow down because you don't feel "comfortable" moving quick is lame.
Bastion
Issere | Corruption Sorcerer
WÓnter | Concealment Operative

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
04.21.2014 , 10:05 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by MCaliban View Post
The truth is that only healers are team players.

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.
So, I'm supposed to stand there and wait eventual death?

You do realize that some of the Maras/Sentinels/Sorcs like to troll people in KDY by pulling all nearby groups.
Tell me one good reason why I should not cloak and walk away.
The Progenitor, Legacy Level 50; The Red Eclipse, Legacy Level ??
Tanks: Juggernaut (P), 2x Assassin (P, RE)
Tanks: 2x Shadow (P), Vanguard (P), Guardian (P)

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
04.21.2014 , 10:16 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by MCaliban View Post
The truth is that only healers are team players.

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.
I am a little stunned to hear someone say this. I don't think I've ever seen anyone express this viewpoint before.

A good tank is worth their weight in gold. They give up 60% of the damage they COULD do, for the sole purpose of controlling the battlefield so the rest of the group can survive. They position bosses to they can be killed. They help keep the healer alive. They have to look at Toth's junk while the ranged dps get a nice view of the battle.

Perhaps you've never met a good tank? Perhaps you're on too many ignore lists to actually meet one?

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
04.22.2014 , 12:03 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
I am a little stunned to hear someone say this. I don't think I've ever seen anyone express this viewpoint before.

A good tank is worth their weight in gold. They give up 60% of the damage they COULD do, for the sole purpose of controlling the battlefield so the rest of the group can survive. They position bosses to they can be killed. They help keep the healer alive. They have to look at Toth's junk while the ranged dps get a nice view of the battle.

Perhaps you've never met a good tank? Perhaps you're on too many ignore lists to actually meet one?
It looks like people who have never met a good tank think like that.

For me it's always Mando Raiders or Foundry that has great tank in group. They are usually Powertechs/Vanguards:
- if healer isn't struggling with their resources as soon as you kill that last mob you see tank already running to next group so that they can build up enough threat to annoy most aggro stealing Marauders/Sentinels (there just isn't a way to steal aggro from these tanks even if you wanted)
- If healer is struggling they give healer enough time to rest a bit.

I've personally never met a really bad tank (if we exclude myself). Of course some of the tanks I've met open with taunt but it didn't ruin their overall performance, it's just wrong way to use taunts. Most of the tanks I've met are good enough but nothing more. So it's sometimes really nice to get to group with really good tank.
The Progenitor, Legacy Level 50; The Red Eclipse, Legacy Level ??
Tanks: Juggernaut (P), 2x Assassin (P, RE)
Tanks: 2x Shadow (P), Vanguard (P), Guardian (P)

ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
04.22.2014 , 12:10 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by MCaliban View Post
The truth is that only healers are team players.

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.
I disagree. I am a healer and I have seen a number of team players which are tanks and DPS. I would state it would depend on the group but that may be because I normally run with my boyfriend or my guild and rarely do I ever do group finder but in the few times I have done them most have been team players.
A southern girl is a girl who knows full well that she can open a door for herself but prefers for the gentleman to do it because it demonstrates a sense of respect. Current Guild Roleplay: Redemption: The battle of Xa Fel https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=...ps/r-1rAjOuo30

Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
04.22.2014 , 12:24 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by MCaliban View Post
The truth is that only healers are team players.

'I see you are struggling, and I could solve this with one button. Instead, I shall stand here and do nothing, or I'll run off and pull a different mob. That will teach you to not do things exactly as I desire.'

DPS just want to kill stuff. Tanks are DPS who want to feel important.
oh that's so wrong.

every role can be a team player and as a career player I can tell you right now, I can be extremely vindictive. team player or not - I have tools at my disposal that allow me to punish people for misbehaving more effectively than any tank could - its part of the appeal of playing a healer in a first place.

thing that I love about SWTOR group content is that everyone is important and for success of the group - everyone needs to be a good team player - dps are extremely important in this game, they can make or break the run just as much as tank or healer can. and many people understand that and adjust accordingly. including- ESPECIALLY tanks. who aside from overeager dps - set the pace and more often than not - that pace is dictated by how the rest of the group performs. do they kill things quickly, is the healer struggling? tanks are the ones that have to adjust and adopt and yes, it can get frustrating when all you are trying to do is get the run going smoothly. but being a tank can be a thankless job, becasue you deal very little damage, you don't see big numbers, you cannot salvage bad situation like a good healer can. you are there to be the glue. why do you think so few people tank? because rarely what they do is appreciated.