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Pulling before the tank


Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
05.16.2014 , 12:18 PM | #161
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
2) If you wait between pulls you lose all your leftover focus / rage.
Force Leap + Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault
What did you say? Combat/Carnage?
Master Strike/Ravage doesn't require Focus/Rage.
The Progenitor, Legacy Level 50; The Red Eclipse, Legacy Level ??
Tanks: Juggernaut (P), 2x Assassin (P, RE)
Tanks: 2x Shadow (P), Vanguard (P)

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.16.2014 , 12:40 PM | #162
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
Force Leap + Sundering Strike/Sundering Assault
What did you say? Combat/Carnage?
Master Strike/Ravage doesn't require Focus/Rage.
a) Let me first say that I don't disagree with the above.
b) Let me further say this has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

Try this: re-write my argument in your own words. What is it that YOU think I'm trying to say here?

DrewFromPhilly's Avatar


DrewFromPhilly
05.16.2014 , 12:48 PM | #163
On the flip side, though, I've seen a lot of terrible tanks and healers when I do ops/flashpoint on my sentinel. While I will never pull before the tank and am always patient before pulls, and will CC whatever droid he/she asks me to and never break mine or others CC - if I'm constantly pulling threat (even through guard) am I expected to lower my dps to avoid that? I'm not trying to brag, so don't take it like that, but I spent $90 on a razor naga mouse and have everything keybound, and feel pretty capable with combat/carnage and maximizing my output is fun for me, and that's how I enjoy the game. But, Even when I have similar gear as a tank (tier wise obviously), I find myself constantly popping force camouflage and my defensive CDs because I've got aggro again even when they have guard on me. I mean, in the beginning of a fight/pull if I go all out too early and you're still building your threat then sure, mybad, but if it's happening constantly during the fight then what am I supposed to do? When I run stuff with my guild I don't even worry about it, because I know the tank and he knows what he's doing - but as annoying as a bad dps is, if I've got to consciously lower my dps it's not fun for me, and you as the tank are annoying me immensely.

Also, a lot of healers IMO have trouble healing multiple people especially while under fire. Instead of using CC or kiting while still putting out heals (which every heal class is capable of doing) they immediately blame the DPS for not allowing them to effortlessly play whack-a-mole with the ops frame - at least, thats what it sounds like to me when I see the complaining in ops/group chat, and I've healed many, many ops on my commando as well as done pvp on it for over a year. Yes, when I'm on my sentinel I always go after adds and weak mobs especially if they're going after the healer - but if you're just standing there only paying attention to the ops frame then you don't really have room to complain IMO.

Ryuku-sama's Avatar


Ryuku-sama
05.16.2014 , 03:10 PM | #164
Quote: Originally Posted by DrewFromPhilly View Post
On the flip side, though, I've seen a lot of terrible tanks and healers when I do ops/flashpoint on my sentinel. While I will never pull before the tank and am always patient before pulls, and will CC whatever droid he/she asks me to and never break mine or others CC - if I'm constantly pulling threat (even through guard) am I expected to lower my dps to avoid that? I'm not trying to brag, so don't take it like that, but I spent $90 on a razor naga mouse and have everything keybound, and feel pretty capable with combat/carnage and maximizing my output is fun for me, and that's how I enjoy the game. But, Even when I have similar gear as a tank (tier wise obviously), I find myself constantly popping force camouflage and my defensive CDs because I've got aggro again even when they have guard on me. I mean, in the beginning of a fight/pull if I go all out too early and you're still building your threat then sure, mybad, but if it's happening constantly during the fight then what am I supposed to do? When I run stuff with my guild I don't even worry about it, because I know the tank and he knows what he's doing - but as annoying as a bad dps is, if I've got to consciously lower my dps it's not fun for me, and you as the tank are annoying me immensely.

Also, a lot of healers IMO have trouble healing multiple people especially while under fire. Instead of using CC or kiting while still putting out heals (which every heal class is capable of doing) they immediately blame the DPS for not allowing them to effortlessly play whack-a-mole with the ops frame - at least, thats what it sounds like to me when I see the complaining in ops/group chat, and I've healed many, many ops on my commando as well as done pvp on it for over a year. Yes, when I'm on my sentinel I always go after adds and weak mobs especially if they're going after the healer - but if you're just standing there only paying attention to the ops frame then you don't really have room to complain IMO.
In fact as combat you should go all out early... then let the tank taunt off you just after you finished your second PS window (and your second Zen)... just after the taunt you pop force camo... and pop it every time you steal aggro.. combat is so bursty that, at equal gear, we can easily pull through guard during the second PS window.
I want for SoR....
New PvP maps;
New GSF maps, modes, ships and a legacy hangar for GSF;
More characters slots per server. I want 50 slots per server!!!!!

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
05.16.2014 , 07:49 PM | #165
Quote: Originally Posted by ItachiZaku View Post
I'm guessing you've never done Korriban Incursion with no stealthers and all DPS.

Trinity isn't needed in tacticals, but I've always felt having one was much quicker and easier. You never had to stop to self heal, you can just go go go.
Actually, I've done Korriban Incursion with a group of 4 snipers and we roflstomped it (2 were overgeared and 2 were undergeared). As long as people know how to use their defensive cooldowns and focus fire it's not difficult.

Quote: Originally Posted by fire-breath View Post
I hate to inform you than that you are one huge waste in a level 55 hard mode. I'm not kidding. You are dragging your team down and should be a shamed of your self. Respec your tanks to dps like yesterday and zerg those 55 HMs.
Don't get me wrong, I don't mind you being a tank but you think of yourself as a waste currently.

Lv 55 flashpoints don't need a tank to complete. A dps is perfectly able to take the full brunt of the damage from the bosses and trashpulls. I have seen this before, I have tanked HMs on my dps either solo, duo or because the tank was a dps with tankbutton enabled. Same goes for a few friends of mine.
(...)
Long story short, you really don't need a tank for anything besides the hardest content opswise (and a potential groupfinder to pop). Therefore arguing that tanks are worthless in tacticals implies that they are worthless for most other content too
I gauge whether a tank is useful for completing an FP by whether the group completes faster with the tank or without. Judging from my experience in tactical FPs, I'd say a group of 4 DPS at or above the base recommended gear level for the FP is always going to complete faster than a similarly geared group with a tank.

In HM 55 FPs on the other hand, the group without a tank is going to complete slower due to wipes/lack of tactical positioning. Unless the healer and DPS are completely overgeared, in which case this discussion is irrelevant so I really don't get your point.

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
05.16.2014 , 11:43 PM | #166
Quote: Originally Posted by Gardimuer View Post
I gauge whether a tank is useful for completing an FP by whether the group completes faster with the tank or without. Judging from my experience in tactical FPs, I'd say a group of 4 DPS at or above the base recommended gear level for the FP is always going to complete faster than a similarly geared group with a tank.
Now I start to understand why some people don't want a group with 1 tank and 1 healer to KDY. It's not like it takes forever to complete it with trinity.
The Progenitor, Legacy Level 50; The Red Eclipse, Legacy Level ??
Tanks: Juggernaut (P), 2x Assassin (P, RE)
Tanks: 2x Shadow (P), Vanguard (P)

EranofArcadia's Avatar


EranofArcadia
05.17.2014 , 08:40 AM | #167
I've done Kuat enough times to say that it isn't really whether a player is a tank or a DPS so much as whether they know what they are doing or not, that determines speed.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
05.17.2014 , 11:12 AM | #168
Quote: Originally Posted by Halinalle View Post
Now I start to understand why some people don't want a group with 1 tank and 1 healer to KDY. It's not like it takes forever to complete it with trinity.
Did you give up on our conversation above?

Gardimuer's Avatar


Gardimuer
05.17.2014 , 12:36 PM | #169
Quote: Originally Posted by EranofArcadia View Post
I've done Kuat enough times to say that it isn't really whether a player is a tank or a DPS so much as whether they know what they are doing or not, that determines speed.
This is definitely true.