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Why was love/marriage banned in the Jedi Order?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why was love/marriage banned in the Jedi Order?

Svevin's Avatar


Svevin
04.11.2014 , 12:02 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
Granted, that's an interesting theory, but is there any canon evidence that would support this?

I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.
Yeah, I don't have any proof, I'm just kinda Fan Wanking here (don't click that if you value your time/sanity). Definitely not claiming it's canon, but it seems like a reasonable explanation for a pretty illogical rule.

Like one of the above posters mentioned, Jedi are tempted to fall to the Dark Side when they lose their Masters (and vice versa), an attachment forced on them by the Jedi Order, but they still follow the Master/Padawan dictate. Jedi fall to the Dark Side after seeing combat, but they still engage in battle. And a LOT of Jedi fall because they think that failing ONCE is a complete failure, so they should just embrace it (see Juhani).

The one rule that would provide them with powerful Jedi dynasties (see the Skywalkers) is against the rules. I see a disconnect there, and the most likely source of the disconnect is the ancient enemy of the Order.

Quickpaw's Avatar


Quickpaw
04.12.2014 , 08:01 PM | #22
Out-of-universe-Lucas reason? DRAMA.

In-universe: I mostly see Odan-Urr being the major catalyst for this policy given his rewrite of the Jedi Code. Granted this makes little sense with what the Consular learns from the holocrons on Tython, but again: Tales of the Jedi was written before SWTOR. Retcon issues abound.

It's led to the mindset that a Jedi must be detached from anything that might tempt him/her/it. It's a good theory, with the best intentions. But in practice it fails to teach a person (or even an organization) how to deal with inner turmoil (which the revised code says doesn't, or more accurately SHOULDN'T exist). Thus, when the individual feels anything remotely resembling a negative emotion (and they're going to, I mean come on. Nobody's perfect) they beat themselves up and refuse to acknowledge the validity of what they feel.

In real life terms, I find many parallels to the debate over homosexual marriage/discrimination. There are two main reasons anyone in their right mind would bring forward as being against homosexuality as a morally acceptable concept. 1: Religious based (teachings not based on personal experience), or 2: The fear of sexual exploitation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I buy either one of these reasons. But the well-deserved reputation of Catholic priests has lead to the later case, which I compare strongly to Jedi such as Anikan who for whatever reason are not emotionally stable enough to form healthy relationships. Such incidents in the minds of the policy makers indicate that there is a major problem happening in their organization, which leads to increased restrictions on activity that puts individuals at risk of "deviant" behavior.

And as the years pass and the incidents become less prevalent it is assumed that it is these restrictive measures that prevented "falls to the dark side" (real-world rape of young boys). Thus these measures are now and forever seen as necessary for the good of all, and become religious-or, more accurately, faith-based reasons to restrict said behavior (or what is SEEN as a behavior).

This is a flawed premise both for real-world homosexuality, and for Jedi emotional attachment, because they are seen by the policy makers as "behavior," not uncontrollable states of being. To clarify: Neither homosexuality nor Jedi romantic love is a choice. The deviant behaviors that might (that's very important) result from these states of being are. In no way do I condone homosexual (or heterosexual, for that mater) rape or Jedi giving in to the dark side by way of romantic passion. However, both in real life and in the Star Wars universe the restrictions imposed have severe and detrimental costs to the individual who experiences these states of being.

Case in point: Self-loathing. In the real world, this leads to alienation, isolation, and (in the worst case) suicide. In the Star Wars mythos, this (ironically) leads to an increased risk of falling to the Dark Side either out of rejection of the restrictions or a rejection of the self.

Love, attachment, and illogical behavior/decisions are something every person goes through in their life. The same is true of Jedi. This is not a bad thing. The core of Jedi teaching is not logic, but compassion. Kindness, charity, and mercy are some of the most illogical concepts, yet they form the foundation of how a Jedi is expected to act. But of course "There is no Emotion, There is Logic."

It is this false dichotomy and double standard that, in my personal opinion, has lead to most if not every Jedi who has fallen and/or given in to the Darkside. There is no support structure to fall back on, no way to learn how to properly understand and deal with the emotions, attachments, and yes: LOVE that a Jedi will inevitably feel. They are only ever told: "It is Forbidden."

If there is any person or group that feels I have attacked their beliefs or otherwise been insulted by what I have written, I apologize. As I have stated, this is only my personal opinion based on my own experiences and what I know of Star Wars lore.

I am, and forever will be a "Grey Jedi." And if you ask me the Jedi Order is no place for children!
Honestly, when it comes down to it, I don't think I'm a very "good" Jedi. And you know what? I'm fine with that. I trust my heart more than my head, and that's not a bad thing.
My name is Shadow. And I am a Jedi.

Brittaany_Banks's Avatar


Brittaany_Banks
04.12.2014 , 11:29 PM | #23
Mispost
I don't care who you are. I don't care if you are male, or female, black, or white, gay, or straight, religious, or non-religious, old or young. I care about 3 things. Can you tank properly? Can you DPS properly? Can you heal properly?
#GamerGate

Timarick's Avatar


Timarick
04.13.2014 , 12:16 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Quickpaw View Post
Out-of-universe-Lucas reason? DRAMA.

In-universe: I mostly see Odan-Urr being the major catalyst for this policy given his rewrite of the Jedi Code. Granted this makes little sense with what the Consular learns from the holocrons on Tython, but again: Tales of the Jedi was written before SWTOR. Retcon issues abound.

It's led to the mindset that a Jedi must be detached from anything that might tempt him/her/it. It's a good theory, with the best intentions. But in practice it fails to teach a person (or even an organization) how to deal with inner turmoil (which the revised code says doesn't, or more accurately SHOULDN'T exist). Thus, when the individual feels anything remotely resembling a negative emotion (and they're going to, I mean come on. Nobody's perfect) they beat themselves up and refuse to acknowledge the validity of what they feel.

In real life terms, I find many parallels to the debate over homosexual marriage/discrimination. There are two main reasons anyone in their right mind would bring forward as being against homosexuality as a morally acceptable concept. 1: Religious based (teachings not based on personal experience), or 2: The fear of sexual exploitation.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I buy either one of these reasons. But the well-deserved reputation of Catholic priests has lead to the later case, which I compare strongly to Jedi such as Anikan who for whatever reason are not emotionally stable enough to form healthy relationships. Such incidents in the minds of the policy makers indicate that there is a major problem happening in their organization, which leads to increased restrictions on activity that puts individuals at risk of "deviant" behavior.

And as the years pass and the incidents become less prevalent it is assumed that it is these restrictive measures that prevented "falls to the dark side" (real-world rape of young boys). Thus these measures are now and forever seen as necessary for the good of all, and become religious-or, more accurately, faith-based reasons to restrict said behavior (or what is SEEN as a behavior).

This is a flawed premise both for real-world homosexuality, and for Jedi emotional attachment, because they are seen by the policy makers as "behavior," not uncontrollable states of being. To clarify: Neither homosexuality nor Jedi romantic love is a choice. The deviant behaviors that might (that's very important) result from these states of being are. In no way do I condone homosexual (or heterosexual, for that mater) rape or Jedi giving in to the dark side by way of romantic passion. However, both in real life and in the Star Wars universe the restrictions imposed have severe and detrimental costs to the individual who experiences these states of being.

Case in point: Self-loathing. In the real world, this leads to alienation, isolation, and (in the worst case) suicide. In the Star Wars mythos, this (ironically) leads to an increased risk of falling to the Dark Side either out of rejection of the restrictions or a rejection of the self.

Love, attachment, and illogical behavior/decisions are something every person goes through in their life. The same is true of Jedi. This is not a bad thing. The core of Jedi teaching is not logic, but compassion. Kindness, charity, and mercy are some of the most illogical concepts, yet they form the foundation of how a Jedi is expected to act. But of course "There is no Emotion, There is Logic."

It is this false dichotomy and double standard that, in my personal opinion, has lead to most if not every Jedi who has fallen and/or given in to the Darkside. There is no support structure to fall back on, no way to learn how to properly understand and deal with the emotions, attachments, and yes: LOVE that a Jedi will inevitably feel. They are only ever told: "It is Forbidden."

If there is any person or group that feels I have attacked their beliefs or otherwise been insulted by what I have written, I apologize. As I have stated, this is only my personal opinion based on my own experiences and what I know of Star Wars lore.

I am, and forever will be a "Grey Jedi." And if you ask me the Jedi Order is no place for children!
I wouldn't consider you a Gray Jedi. I'd consider you a New Jedi more in line with Luke's school of Jedi training. During this era (and even shown in Legacy of the Force when he loses a family member to the dark side and another through death) the Jedi have by and large thrown out the law on marriage and attachments and to those that did not, they created a system of mentorship and camaraderie in order to prevent even their strongest members LIKE Luke fall to the Dark Side. Heck even Jacen only fell because he believed it would save the Jedi Order as a whole and he didn't once think or act out of fear, even for the safety of his own daughter. When Mara Jade died, Luke had the entire and full support of the Jedi Order, especially his son, to allow him to come back to the light after he brutally massacred (falsely) Lumiya in a blind rage and nearly took Jacen with her.

I love how people claim to be "Gray" Jedi so they can use their emotions and the cool dark side powers that come with it as if it justifies their means, even though if they were given sufficient training, very few would truly be "Gray". Any and every nerd is a rebel who bristles and lashes out against the world, but when given access to their true potential and greater purpose, they tend to bury those emotions in favor of what they gain from the future. Those naturally "**** you I will kill you all!" impulses that come with being oppressed become increasingly distant when they are no longer there, and then you seek to bring other people out of that darkness. That's not being Gray, that's a Jedi straight out. Just because you have emotions and know how to deal with them, doesn't suddenly make a Gray. A true gray, who does both good and bad, while a prominent belief in the real world, is actually very rare. We tend to lean more heavy on the spectrum of morality than straddle them both equally.

While a true "light" and a true "dark" are even more rare and the world is gray, there is still plenty of black and plenty of white out there in order to create that Gray, and in a universe where the lifeforce of the universe itself can heavily influence an individual's actions and give it more weight than in the real world, it would tend to give perspective as well. Well that and the novel you just wrote doesn't come off as something a "Gray" Jedi would do, but more a New one who sees the flaws of the old but also the best, and tries to learn from them. After all, "There is no Ignorance; There is Knowledge."

BenKatarn's Avatar


BenKatarn
04.13.2014 , 02:55 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.
I would like to point out that, during the course of the Jedi Consular's story, you meet a Jedi Master by the name of Duras Fain on Nar Shaddaa, who, in turn, has a DAUGHTER, Laranna Fain. There is no pretence at all during this, nobody points out that Jedi are not supposed to have a family or attachments. They are there and it seems like the most normal thing in the world. Nobody even considers that Duras Fain's activities on Nar Shaddaa (gathering the refugees there to fight against the Hutt Cartel) might be the result of the dark side since he already broke the vow of non-attachment and had a relationship and a daughter, who is ALSO in the Jedi Order.

Then there is that stuff the female Jedi Consular can say when asked by Felix Iresso if she will get a reprimand by the Council if they find out about them. She says "If the Jedi is trustworthy and shows good judgement, the Council tends to be lenient." That would mean that, under certain circumstances, the Order is ok with stuff like this. That in turn sort of contrasts with the other Jedi romances, in particular the female Jedi Knight who at times seems super afraid her relationship with Doc might be exposed to the Council (plus its the only romance where advancing it and marrying gives Dark Side points).

Quote: Originally Posted by smagetti View Post
There is no emotion. There is peace

First line of the Jedi code. Love is emotion, and they believe in no emotion. Emotion may cloud their judgement.
I believe this is actually a misinterpretation of the Jedi Code. Of course there is emotion, every living being has it, it's what makes them different from droids. What the Jedi Code means by this line is that emotion should not be the cause of making a decision. You stay calm, focussed, and make a rational decision instead of lashing out based on emotions that might cloud your judgement. "Compassion" for instance is an emotion that could arguably be one of the pillars of the Jedi Order. If emotion was dead to them, would they actually want to help people?

There is also this scene with Ashara Zavros and Master Ryen on Taris, where she explains the Jedi Code thusly, when asked what the line "There is no passion. There is serenity." means and she ties it to other parts of the Code:

"It means that a Jedi must be prepared to think calmly even in intense situations. Passion is a tool of the dark side. "There is no emotion. There is peace." It also means Jedi should temper their intuition with wisdom. "There is no ignorance. There is knowledge.""
- = = The Atrias Legacy = = -
Aryne, Jedi Sentinel | Cayra, Jedi Sage | Kherra, Scoundrel | Khenna, Vanguard
Vertos, Sith Juggernaut | Zedas, Sith Sorcerer | Ysari, Sniper | Neith, Powertech

Bolfotha's Avatar


Bolfotha
04.14.2014 , 04:26 PM | #26
I'm guessing it's the same reason why Jedi aren't allowed to have personal belongings
The order doesn't want to have any kind of attachment
According the movie guidebooks, the order even gave Anakin trouble for painting his Starfighter in his personal yellow colors

This if of course, all according to George Lucas's intended vision of Jedi. And say what you want, but Lucas was always been consistent about what Jedi and Sith are. I don't think EU necessarily respects this vision, though.

but really, if SWTOR was lore accurate, it would be nearly impossible to roleplay a Jedi

why do you typically do in an mmorpg?
you kill things to be acquire more power, which in turn you use to acquire even more power
and sometimes you want to be vain and have pets, customized armor and other vanity items
TOTALLY NOT JEDI

Quickpaw's Avatar


Quickpaw
04.14.2014 , 06:11 PM | #27
Spoiler


To clarify: I may not consider myself "Grey," but the Jedi Council certainly would. My favorite three characters in the Star Wars timeline (Zayne Carrick, Jolee Bindo, and Qui-Gon Jinn) were considered maverick rebels by the council yet all they ever did was disagree with them on certain points. I was referring to the label, as it is nothing more than a label. I don't believe there's any such thing as a "Grey Jedi." Just light Jedi who are not "orthodox."
Honestly, when it comes down to it, I don't think I'm a very "good" Jedi. And you know what? I'm fine with that. I trust my heart more than my head, and that's not a bad thing.
My name is Shadow. And I am a Jedi.

Taramai's Avatar


Taramai
04.14.2014 , 10:55 PM | #28
Seems like a really foolish idea, considering Force potential has been shown to be genetic (the Shan and Skywalker bloodlines for example). Way to slowly kill your order, Jedi.

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
04.15.2014 , 01:01 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by ScarletBlaze View Post
A lot of times they will do the exact opposite of what you tell them.
Not always, and a lot of that depends on how they were raised in the first place. You're dealing with people who were brought into the Jedi Order when they were 5 or so. Growing up in that kind of environment is a very different thing then most of us could ever understand.

Quote:
No it is an emotion and there is no way you can ban that.
If you train someone from age 5 on to repress emotions like love, then yes it is actually possible.

Quote:
Masters and Padawans formed attachments to each other.
Which is part of the whole point in doing it, to teach the Master and Padawan to learn how to live with someone but also accept that they will leave at some point so they don't form a lasting attachment.

Quote:
So saying attachments should be banned was a bit short-sighted.
No it's not. Just because there's other ways to fall, doesn't mean that attachments and love should be allowed, not when they're known to be a very easy way to get started on road to the darkside. Attachment and loss of that person is quite likely one of the easiest ways to get started down that road. As such it makes more sense to simply not allow it then try to figure out who can handle it vs who can't.

TylerAcalan's Avatar


TylerAcalan
04.15.2014 , 05:59 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by GrimAce View Post
The problem with this theory is that forbidding relationships was in place by the time of KOTOR, with dialogue options with Bastila pretty clearly stating the Order's stance. This means these rules were in place before the event of the KOTOR games, not as a result of them. So saying that the Jedi became more conservative after the Jedi Civil War doesn't take into account the changes that were already occuring within the Order, and the mandates that had already been established.
"All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again."

Yes you are correct in that these mandates go back further then the Jedi Civil war. Your question was why the order prior to TOR more restrictive and similar to the restrictions of Episode 1.

My point however stands. Revan was the cause for the restrictions we see in KoTOR though he was not the first.

If you go back you will find that there are Three Great Schisms in the history of the Jedi Order when Dark Jedi broke the rules and refused to follow the same path as their Light Jedi brethren. The very first Great Schism you will notice was a direct result of affection between two Jedi who refused to give it up and allowed it to lead them down a darker path.

Revan was not the first but he was the latest around the time of KoTOR. Between the 300 years of his Order, it's destruction in KoTOR II the standards have slipped a bit which is why there is marriage allowed in the Order of TOR.

The Fourth Great Schism will cause yet the same restrictions to come down following the Reformations resulting in the restrictive Order of Episode 1.

Again. "All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again."