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Why was love/marriage banned in the Jedi Order?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Why was love/marriage banned in the Jedi Order?

GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
04.10.2014 , 09:36 AM | #1
Now, this probably seems like a fairly dull, mundane topic based on the title...but it's late and I couldn't think up anything better >.>

My question isn't in regards to why the Jedi philosophy explains why emotional attachments are looked down upon, it's in regards to historical context. We see a dramatic change in Jedi attitudes between the Tales of the Jedi series, where we have characters like Nomi Sunrider not only being allowed to marry and love, but also to be trained at a very late age as well.

Jump forward to the Knights of the Old Republic, where we have the more recognizable, prequel trilogy-style training practices of the Order - no entering training after a certain age (with Revan's retraining an obvious exception), love and marriage forbidden and so forth.

I consider myself pretty well versed in Star Wars lore, but unfortunately I don't know much about the KOTOR comics and other material, so I was hoping someone could help fill in the blanks for me here, from an in-universe perspective - why did the Jedi suddenly become so hardline against relationships and attachments? What was their justfication for this drastic change in their philosophy, and how popular was it when it was implemented?
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JouerTue
04.10.2014 , 09:56 AM | #2
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marriage while doing some search about the topic i found this useful link..i knew luke got married, and i think the veto on weddings comes from the habit of jedi to live in enclaves and such monastic way that allowing romance would only result in a: multiple sex relationships and b: multiple dark side falls and deaths.

plus: ppl sometimes do bad things to their partner..imagine that with force choke and stuff flying all over the room pushed by force waves.

TylerAcalan's Avatar


TylerAcalan
04.10.2014 , 03:40 PM | #3
Revan happened.

I'm not kidding.

Every time something drastic such as a prominent figure like the fall of Revan happens, there is a fear based reaction in the Jedi Order that makes them scale back the scope of everything to a more emotionless state and far more restrictive view of things in order to clamp down on the odds of said event never happening again.

After the Jedi Civil War and the Exile of Meetra Surik. The Jedi Order regressed into a more restrictive state to prevent another fall on a scale of Darth Revan. This was advocated by the Jedi Council Member Master Atris. The very Atris of KoTOR II who took Meetra Surik's leave from the order to follow Revan as a personal betrayal and pushed for the restrictive measures because she took it so badly.

The Jedi Order of Episode One was holding to the same restrictive state as laid out by the Ruusian Reformations as a direct result of the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood of Darkness. Both results of the Fourth Great Schism where once again, a prominent Jedi Master was allowed to fall and rebuild the Sith Order.

This is not an uncommon event. As time progresses people feel they can be trusted to live as they see fit until someone betrays that trust. Should the Old Guard or in this case, the Jedi Order, be victorious in the Revolution, they will see fit to return to a way of life that prevented such things from happening. A return to a safe past. Tradition that has worked.

This will hold until standards slowly slip and once again the Sith threaten the Galaxy. It's a never ending cycle of Birth, Decay, Revolt, Destruction, and Renewal. The one cycle that continues as long as the story of Star Wars is told.

Svevin's Avatar


Svevin
04.10.2014 , 04:19 PM | #4
I'm of the opinion that this ban was in some way influenced by Sith infiltrators into the Jedi order. In many ways, the "Love" ban led to a great deal of turmoil, and the loss of many Jedi.

We know the Sith have infiltrated the Jedi order in disguise before (see BTC 103 entry here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/galactic-history), and we know the Sith have nothing to lose, and everything to gain from the move. Less Jedi children being born as a result of Jedi parentage, thus breaking up many of the powerful Force bloodlines. More Padawans, and Jedi, falling to the Dark Side as a result of believing their love is wrong, and deciding to go all out with Dark Side passions.

I think the New Jedi Order shows that love, and marriage, were not wrong. Even Anakin's love for Padme wasn't wrong; it was his rejection of "There is no Death, there is only The Force" that caused him to follow Palpatine.

I know, it's pretty crazy, but you have to admit the move is very Sith-like, and gains them a lot in the long term. All they had to do was push for restrictions when the time was right; Revan's betrayal, et al. Definitely Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ldMassGuessing (DO NOT GO THERE!), but to me, it explains a lot of this crazy aspect of the Old Republic's Jedi.

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TheRandomno
04.10.2014 , 04:19 PM | #5
Two words: Theron Shan.
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GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
04.10.2014 , 05:31 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by TylerAcalan View Post
Revan happened.

I'm not kidding.

Every time something drastic such as a prominent figure like the fall of Revan happens, there is a fear based reaction in the Jedi Order that makes them scale back the scope of everything to a more emotionless state and far more restrictive view of things in order to clamp down on the odds of said event never happening again.

After the Jedi Civil War and the Exile of Meetra Surik. The Jedi Order regressed into a more restrictive state to prevent another fall on a scale of Darth Revan. This was advocated by the Jedi Council Member Master Atris. The very Atris of KoTOR II who took Meetra Surik's leave from the order to follow Revan as a personal betrayal and pushed for the restrictive measures because she took it so badly.

The Jedi Order of Episode One was holding to the same restrictive state as laid out by the Ruusian Reformations as a direct result of the New Sith Wars and the Brotherhood of Darkness. Both results of the Fourth Great Schism where once again, a prominent Jedi Master was allowed to fall and rebuild the Sith Order.

This is not an uncommon event. As time progresses people feel they can be trusted to live as they see fit until someone betrays that trust. Should the Old Guard or in this case, the Jedi Order, be victorious in the Revolution, they will see fit to return to a way of life that prevented such things from happening. A return to a safe past. Tradition that has worked.

This will hold until standards slowly slip and once again the Sith threaten the Galaxy. It's a never ending cycle of Birth, Decay, Revolt, Destruction, and Renewal. The one cycle that continues as long as the story of Star Wars is told.
The problem with this theory is that forbidding relationships was in place by the time of KOTOR, with dialogue options with Bastila pretty clearly stating the Order's stance. This means these rules were in place before the event of the KOTOR games, not as a result of them. So saying that the Jedi became more conservative after the Jedi Civil War doesn't take into account the changes that were already occuring within the Order, and the mandates that had already been established.

Quote: Originally Posted by Svevin View Post
I'm of the opinion that this ban was in some way influenced by Sith infiltrators into the Jedi order. In many ways, the "Love" ban led to a great deal of turmoil, and the loss of many Jedi.

We know the Sith have infiltrated the Jedi order in disguise before (see BTC 103 entry here: http://www.swtor.com/holonet/galactic-history), and we know the Sith have nothing to lose, and everything to gain from the move. Less Jedi children being born as a result of Jedi parentage, thus breaking up many of the powerful Force bloodlines. More Padawans, and Jedi, falling to the Dark Side as a result of believing their love is wrong, and deciding to go all out with Dark Side passions.

I think the New Jedi Order shows that love, and marriage, were not wrong. Even Anakin's love for Padme wasn't wrong; it was his rejection of "There is no Death, there is only The Force" that caused him to follow Palpatine.

I know, it's pretty crazy, but you have to admit the move is very Sith-like, and gains them a lot in the long term. All they had to do was push for restrictions when the time was right; Revan's betrayal, et al. Definitely Wild Mass Guessing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ldMassGuessing (DO NOT GO THERE!), but to me, it explains a lot of this crazy aspect of the Old Republic's Jedi.
Granted, that's an interesting theory, but is there any canon evidence that would support this?

Quote: Originally Posted by TheRandomno View Post
Two words: Theron Shan.
I point you to my first response - it was already forbidden in the Order, so...that's clearly not the whole story. We're missing a piece of the puzzle here.
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ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
04.10.2014 , 05:42 PM | #7
The struggle between love and duty is one of Anakin Skywalker's major conflicts in the Prequel Trilogy. Newer Star Wars fans may not realize, however, that Attack of the Clones was the first time the idea of Jedi celibacy ever came up. In the Expanded Universe, Jedi before and after the Prequel Trilogy had no problem with falling in love, getting married, and having family ties outside of the Jedi Order.

With the Expanded Universe in mind, the question becomes less "why can't Jedi marry?" and more "why did the Jedi taboo against marriage develop, and why did it later disappear?"

Early Jedi Practices and the Expanded Universe

The Jedi Order was founded in 25,783 BBY, and their philosophies -- such as the distinction between the light side and dark side of the Force -- developed over the next few centuries. They served as the guardians of the Republic since its foundation. It wasn't until around 4,000 BBY, however, that the Jedi began to forbid marriage and attachment.

Practically speaking, this is due to the structure of the Expanded Universe. Before the Prequels came out, EU writers had to avoid the Prequel Era so as to avoid contradictions with later material. For the most part, the EU covered events in between the Original Trilogy movies and after Return of the Jedi. In order to explore new time periods and characters, works like Knights of the Old Republic were set 4,000 to 5,000 years before A New Hope and featured Jedi marrying with no problem. When the prohibition of marriage was revealed in Episode II, it only made sense in the EU if it started after 4,000 BBY.

In-universe, the new rule prohibiting marriage is justified by changes in the structure of the Jedi Council and Jedi Order. Before 4,000 BBY, the Jedi Order was made up of loosely affiliated local groups. After the Great Sith War, they became a unified organization under the Jedi High Council, which began to reinterpret the Jedi Code. Among the new regulations were the prohibition of marriage and the idea that Jedi must begin their training as very young children.

Dangers of Attachment

The reorganized Jedi Order focused on eliminating attachment because of how it can lead to the dark side of the Force. The problem is not so much falling in love, but the fear of losing the object of one's affection. This plays out in Revenge of the Sith, in which Anakin turns to the dark side to prevent Padmé's death. The loss of a loved one can also cause a Jedi to turn to the dark side in anger -- as happens to Anakin ater his mother's death.

The Jedi of the Prequel Era are not only forbidden to have romantic attachments; they are forbidden to have familial ones. Force-sensitive children are taken from their families at a young age and brought up in the Jedi Temple, without much or any connection with their biological relatives. They are loyal and devoted to the Jedi Order because they have no other family.

Is Attachment Inherently Bad?

The idea of attachment being dangerous is not new in the Prequels. It goes all the way back to The Empire Strikes Back, when Yoda warns Luke not to rush into danger just to save his friends. It happens again in Return of the Jedi, when Darth Vader manipulates Luke into attacking by threatening to harm Leia.

And yet, Luke trained as an older student and got married -- and allows such things in the New Jedi Order -- without the problems the Jedi worry about in the Prequels. The Jedi Order is simply smaller and more disjointed, much like the Jedi before 4,000 BBY.

It seems that prohibiting marriage and other attachment is not a matter of necessity, but a matter if practicality. The Jedi of the Prequel Trilogy prohibit attachment not because it always leads to the dark side, but to encourage devotion to the Order. Perhaps it also avoids creating Jedi dynasties that might divide the order. Since Luke started his New Jedi Order with older Force-sensitives who had already developed attachments, there was no practical way to forbid them; he simply worked with what he had.

From this point of view, one might conclude that Anakin's fall was not the fault of his attachment, but the fault of the Jedi Order. If the Jedi of the Prequels were more familiar with the needs of older trainees, and if they taught their students to deal with attachment wisely rather than forbidding it outright, Anakin may have been able to let Padmé go without fear.


http://scifi.about.com/od/starwarsgl...Jedi-Marry.htm


This is just an article I found.


My opinion on this has been noted too many times so I am not bringing that into play this time. (lol)
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ScarletBlaze's Avatar


ScarletBlaze
04.10.2014 , 05:46 PM | #8
An Article a friend of mine referred me to:

When the previews for Episode II: Attack of the Clones stated that Jedi cannot have relationships, many fans were understandably confused. Star Wars had been around for 25 years at that point, and no one had ever heard of such a thing. Jedi in the Expanded Universe had no problems with marriage and family. Even Ki-Adi-Mundi, a Jedi in the Prequel trilogy, was married in the Expanded Universe.

Suddenly forbidding romance in the Jedi Order seemed like merely a cheap way to add drama to the storyline. Anakin and Padmé can't just have a romance; it must be a secret, angsty romance. As the story progressed, however, another explanation came to light. Perhaps the strict structure and rules of the Prequel-era Jedi Order are not a good thing after all. Perhaps, by not allowing Anakin to love, they are ultimately responsible for his fall to the dark side.

Forbidden Attachments

The Jedi Order forbids romance. This is not an inherently bad thing. Everyone knows how finding a boyfriend or girlfriend in college ate up all your study time -- imagine if you weren't just studying how to pass English Lit and then promptly forget all the books you read, but how to save the universe from evil. Like a religious order that requires its members to remain celibate, the Jedi Order saw romance, marriage, and family as a distraction from one's studies and duties.

But there's an important distinction: members of a celibate religious order are generally able to renounce their order and walk away at any time. Technically, Jedi can leave the Order, and some have. But the Jedi Order doesn't just forbid romance; it forbids all attachment. The Jedi take Force-sensitive children from their homes and families and raise them in a temple, training them from a very young age. The Jedi Order is the only family they know.

Jedi who are exceptions to this rule will find it easier to walk away. Count Dooku, for example, was a member of a noble family. He knew his heritage; he knew that he would have a life ready for him outside the Jedi Order. How many Jedi could say that? Most Jedi cannot make a meaningful decision to stay in the Jedi Order or leave. They are brought in when they are too young to consent and have every outside resource taken away from them.

Anakin & Padmé

Anakin Skywalker is an unusual case. He did not being his Jedi training until the age of 9; "too old," according to Yoda. The Jedi Council made an exception because of his extraordinary potential: he had the highest recorded midi-chlorian count and was possibly even the Chosen One prophesied to bring balance to the Force. Anakin did have a connection to the Jedi Order, but it seems to be more an attachment to his master than a loyalty to the Order as a whole.

Could Anakin have left the Jedi Order? Probably. He may not have had anything to return to, with his past as a slave on Tatooine, but he had talents outside of being a Jedi, as well as a relationship with a woman of great status and influence.

But what would have happened then? Anakin would still be volatile, acting impulsively on his emotions. Outside of the Jedi Order, however, he would have had no one to even try to hold him back. He probably would have become even more vulnerable to manipulation by Chancellor Palpatine. And he certainly would have still given anything to try and prevent Padmé's death.

What-Ifs

What if the Jedi Order had allowed attachment? It certainly worked for the Jedi before and after. But the Jedi Order we see in the Prequels is one that has become lazy. Instead of looking at what is best for each individual Jedi student -- as masters could do for their apprentices before the Order became so centralized -- they came to rely too heavily on rules and regulations.

The Jedi Order is right to believe that attachment can be dangerous. This idea is present even in the Original Trilogy; in Return of the Jedi, for example, Luke's thoughts of his sister betray her to Darth Vader, causing Luke to attack in anger. But feeling attachment, whether one acts on it or not, is a natural impulse. Some Jedi may not feel a need for attachment, and others simply may not wish to form attachments; but those who do should be taught how to handle them.

The primary motivation for banning attachments, it seems, is the worry that fear of loss will drive Jedi to the dark side. This is precisely what happened to Anakin; unable to accept the idea that Padmé might die, he was willing to do evil in order to save her. But what if, instead of banning attachment, the Jedi Order taught its students that loss and grief were a normal part of life, and how to deal with that in the context of being a Jedi?

The Jedi Council already knew that Anakin was vulnerable. Obi-Wan Kenobi almost certainly knew that Anakin was having a relationship, but developed a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, too uncomfortable to discuss the situation and perhaps offer actual help. If the Jedi Order had allowed attachments, this young Jedi in dire need of emotional support could have come to them with his problems. The Jedi Order should have seen the weaknesses in their rules and realized that a breakdown like Anakin's was ultimately inevitable


http://scifi.about.com/od/starwars/a...t-Know-Love.ht
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GrimAce's Avatar


GrimAce
04.10.2014 , 05:59 PM | #9
While interesting, that's...not quite what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a more in-universe perspective.
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Osetto's Avatar


Osetto
04.10.2014 , 06:09 PM | #10
As the Jedi Order grew and became more organized around a central power structure, it likely became necessary for more rigid standards and practices. It's not that all attachment or emotion was inherently dangerous, it's just that once you've got a certain number of Jedi in the Order, it's easier to just lay down whatever rules you can to prevent whatever problems might arise. Rather than bother reviewing things on a case-by-case basis and risk making a mistake, ban the potentially dangerous thing altogether.

It's likely the same as Jedi and positive emotions. Can positive emotions make someone a better Jedi? Yes. Do they always lead to the dark side? No. Can they lead to the dark side? Yes. But instead of properly teaching understanding and caution, it's probably easier to just outright forbid.

There's a lot of parallels with the Republic itself. Lots of members. Lots of unique individuals. But everyone is subject to the same rules and regulations, sometimes unnecessarily restrictive or burdensome. In the early days, there likely weren't as many Jedi or at least less 'mishaps' wrought from Jedi turning to the dark side from emotional attachment. In the later days, Jedi likely had a greater understanding of the Force and their relationship with it, and therefore relaxed restrictions pertaining to attachment. Between then, we have the Old Republic Jedi and all their heavy-handedness.

Less likely an issue of stricter ideals, and more likely an attempt to maintain control as the Order grew.
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