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Healer w/Guard


JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
04.04.2014 , 05:49 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Icarus-Iso View Post
At the end of the day Guard should be used by the Tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.



Also don't be afraid to change your Guarded target. A marksman-spec DPS might need it when they can sit still, while the marauder might need it during the next fight. Keep that thing hot-keyed
this is right..nobody says that guard is forever..but in a balanced good group of ppl knowing role/class (rare nowadays at least pugging) it will be one of those two dps to steal aggro, specially in ops where there aren't ords of trash..

AlixMV's Avatar


AlixMV
04.04.2014 , 05:52 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by icarus-iso View Post
at the end of the day guard should be used by the tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.
^^^ qft
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DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.04.2014 , 10:52 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by JouerTue View Post
i don't agree with you..healers can pop dcd aswell or their threat drop. healer's gonna never aggro if you are a good tank and with good dps , while dps can aggro even with the same level of gear you have (endgame also). and a healer can even kill a weak mob if needed..not that you are going to die against trash..
Trash in this game is stronger than bosses. And dps cannot pull aggro against a tank of the same or even lesser gear if that tank is doing everything properly. It simply cannot happen. Between your first two taunts you have 12 seconds of monopoly on threat and you only have two more globals between your third taunt, and if you can't hold aggro as a tank after your third taunt you need to l2p. That is worst possible case and very rarely would you ever need to even double taunt if you are tanking properly.

In fact the key to easy-mode tanking is knowing which dps is highest threat and using their threat to build your own, which is best facilitated by not having them guarded. Gaurd is a crutch for bad tanks and a mere fact of existence for good ones. Guard the people you can least afford to die, aka your healers (actually in nefra that is why it is often advantageous to guard the other tank, with the ultra rapid threat generation in that fight, you get the largest possible benefit out of the 5% dr.)

Also for note, The drouks in dp hm hit harder than any boss in that instance. The trash in DF hm is the only real threat during any of the boss fights. The valley of death in snv hm hits harder than any boss in that instance.

Honestly the thing with heals is you only protect them because you are safeguarding against the worst possible case. Nothing in this game requires guards so the only reason to use it is to protect best against o **** moments, which is best served by guarding healers.
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NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
04.05.2014 , 02:39 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
You will find a lot beginner-tanks that are often focused on the strongest target.
True, but the OP specifically said he was working "to keep mobs away from everyone as best I could". And because of the way healing threat works in this game, it doesn't take much effort to keep all but the most dispersed of trash packs away from the healer.

Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
Even as a healer i am getting aggro from mobs that are attacked by dps. Who do you think was attacked by the other mobs that are not tanked or attacked by anyone ?
This is going to sound more accusatory than I mean...but I don' t know how else to phrase it. Healing is not going to pull aggro from mobs being hit by the tank or DPS, because healing threat is 50% of DPS threat, further reduced by talents, and then divided across all mobs you are in combat with. And overhealing doesn't generate threat, nor does the sorc bubble.

The one and only case that I can think of that you might legitimately get aggro is from a sentinel, shadow, or operative DPS that stealths, thus resetting their aggro to 0.

But yes, if DPS and tanks don't hit them, you will have aggro. No argument there. Except that, in this case, the only thing guard is going to do for you is the 5% damage reduction. You will still have threat.

And in any case, the correct solution usually isn't to guard the healer. It is to instruct the DPS to kill weakest to strongest, and focus fire.

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NoFishing
04.05.2014 , 02:44 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
stuff...
All fine advice for situational considerations on who to guard in HM operations when you have two tanks and are swapping between them. But the OP was asking about low level flashpoints, where tanks don't even get their AoE taunt until level 35 (?).

DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.05.2014 , 11:42 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by NoFishing View Post
All fine advice for situational considerations on who to guard in HM operations when you have two tanks and are swapping between them. But the OP was asking about low level flashpoints, where tanks don't even get their AoE taunt until level 35 (?).
Lvl 30, and having just leveled my new guardian through that point (the tank with the least aoe threat overall). Its still better to guard heals than dps. "edit" for tanks that know their classes inside and out that is. I guess I can't expect a new person to have a mastery of the class before they begin to level a toon so guarding dps is basically a crutch for them to learn against.

Also Operative and Merc heals have very very good aoe damage for their level which is another reason to guard them seeing as they should be helping a bit with dps too.
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Jeweledleah's Avatar


Jeweledleah
04.05.2014 , 12:31 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.
If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.
err. even when I heal mediocre pug tank on my nearly optimized BiS operative (missing implant and earpiece >_> ) I STILL don't pull over tank or dps. the only time I pull is when the mobs are not being hit by anyone else. that's it. even when I'm reduced to spam healing. there are very few situations where guarding a healer is a good idea and not one of them are in a flashpoint.

a good tank will guard dps. melee dps have higher threat generation then ranged, but guarding ranged may still be a good idea depending on the individual players you are grouped with. because THEY can out threat the tank. healer cannot, not unless the tank stops attacking but healer is still healing.

DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.05.2014 , 02:14 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeweledleah View Post
err. even when I heal mediocre pug tank on my nearly optimized BiS operative (missing implant and earpiece >_> ) I STILL don't pull over tank or dps. the only time I pull is when the mobs are not being hit by anyone else. that's it. even when I'm reduced to spam healing. there are very few situations where guarding a healer is a good idea and not one of them are in a flashpoint.

a good tank will guard dps. melee dps have higher threat generation then ranged, but guarding ranged may still be a good idea depending on the individual players you are grouped with. because THEY can out threat the tank. healer cannot, not unless the tank stops attacking but healer is still healing.
No good tank should ever be out threat genned by dps... sorry its just a fact. Your standards for tanks are much lower than mine.

Also in fp's you should be doing as much damage as possible while healing and due to the nature of operatives you often do better burst dps than many dps'rs do.

Plus tanks at low level have basically identical dps as dps do but with 100% boosted threat gen so if they cant hold aggro then well they have other issues.
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LuaRumina's Avatar


LuaRumina
04.05.2014 , 02:18 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.
If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.
You may be a really, really, really good tank with predictable dps, so that you know they're going to frontload a lot of damage for you to taunt off of and multiply. If you're working together really well as a team there is no need to guard anybody or have anyone use a threat drop. I know of progression groups who insist dps don't threat drop. (Probably because the most common problem with threat drops is that dps use them too soon and the tank is taunting off nothing, which allows the dps to pull ahead on threat.)

But outside of progression teams, it's a sign of either a PVP player or a really, really, really bad tank to guard the healer. 5% damage reduction shouldn't mentally help your healers to prevent distraction. Also, ????????? Really, really, really bad thingsTM happen when you lose threat to a dps, too. Like the first boss of TfB or a boss with a front cone attack turning around on the entire group. And a dps is so much more likely to pull off you than a healer. It's ridiculously hard for a healer to pull threat except in special circumstances (like a commando who has probed the entire ops and then raid-wide damage happens and your commando simply disappears. True story.) But I do agree that in some fights you want to guard a healer because dps are seldom on the same target as the tank, tanks are taunting off each other, etc. and there's raid-wide damage, because why not? Might as well guard somebody and the threat management is the negligible part. But those fights are very rare. We're talking about leveling flashpoints, or just general flashpoints, once you have some aoe damage and especially once your tank has an aoe taunt. If you damage all the enemies, they shouldn't run towards the healer.

Guard is a threat management tool in pve. Use it to manage threat. End of story. I almost wish it didn't have that 5% damage reduction because that is a cause of so much stupidity about guard.

Healers should want a tank to guard dps. If a dps pulls, the healer will have to heal them more than they would the tank, which would generate more threat. If a dps pulls, it could swing a conal attack around at the group, including the healer.

Just guard whomever pulls threat and forget about the measly 5% (generally) and banish from your mind the pvp portion (unless you are fighting a player)!

(Also, if you have seen a commando healer - she is still missing, presumed eaten by droids.)
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DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.05.2014 , 02:41 PM | #30
Since obviously neither person will change each other's minds on this matter let me just simply leave off with saying.

I am not a pvp player.... I am a progression tank/healer/dps on the best raiding guild on my server. (well to be fair the only real world competitive one here on shadowlands).

I guard healers, because a dps will never pull off of me unless I am quite literally afk or pulling everything in an instance. I would also much rather have a mob attack any dps over any healer because I want healers to have to heal other people instead of themselves. (esp sorcs/operatives that have to focus on themselves almost makes them worthless as group heals).

In my humble view, using guards to mitigate a dps's theat is nothing but a crutch for incompetence and mediocrity in pve. I mean bioware hands tanks threat on silver platters.
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