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Healer w/Guard


Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
04.04.2014 , 04:37 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_of_Mu View Post
Either the tank or the dps just has to hit the mob and exceed the small amount of threat you have produced to cause the mob to attack the tank or dps that attacked it.


Put simply, most dps and tanks tunnel vision.
Thank you for explaining how the threat works in this game. I really want everyone to understand how basic it is. Not just healers but many dps/tanks don't understand it.

One very good example is Beast of Vodal Kressh in Athiss FP:
(This is assuming you don't go to cave)
- when adds spawn they will go for healer unless tank/dps doesn't get to them before that
- it only takes one (1) grenade from lowbie 'slinger to pull those off of Healer. And they will stay on that 'slinger like group of rabid dogs if not attacked by anyone else.
The Progenitor, Legacy Level 50; The Red Eclipse, Legacy Level ??
Tanks: Juggernaut (P), 3x Assassin (2xP, RE)
Tanks: 2x Shadow (P), Vanguard (P), Guardian (P)

rantboi's Avatar


rantboi
04.04.2014 , 05:17 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
I am not talking about only ONE weak mob... i can deal with those "single mobs" on my own...

This discussion does not make sense... you are only talking about "normal" groups where everyone knows what to do.
But you have not only to deal with "normal" situations or groups...
yeah but no matter how many mobs there are, guard works the same. they will still attack you if no one else touches them whether you have guard or not.

Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.04.2014 , 05:37 AM | #13
Quote:
- it only takes one (1) grenade from lowbie 'slinger to pull those off of Healer. And they will stay on that 'slinger like group of rabid dogs if not attacked by anyone else.
YES... if they are doing this...

if not i have to deal with these mobs on my own. And i had to do exactly this the last two runs i was in there...

As well i had to deal on my own with the mobs that spawn during the next encounter as well...
Don`t tell me that it is good enough just to use a DPSers AE to get rid of them... they didn`t take notice of them.

As well as no DPS takes care about the adds that spawn during the last fight in Hammerstation.
If i was not fast enough to kick the mobs down i had to fight them down myself without any assistance...
And by the way... this boss was one of the four bosses i saw enrageing... consider now that the dps were not wasting damage to the adds that spawned.

There were more situations like this in nearly every FP i joined. That is what i am talking about... not what should be "normal"...

Maybe i was very unlucky when joining those groups...

Quote:
yeah but no matter how many mobs there are, guard works the same. they will still attack you if no one else touches them whether you have guard or not.
──hm... there is still the damage-reduction that may help... and when i am the one that takes damage besides the tank i think it`s better to protect me than a dps that takes no damage at all... in case he draws aggro from the tank, the tank may use his taunt...

Seireeni's Avatar


Seireeni
04.04.2014 , 05:46 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
──hm... there is still the damage-reduction that may help... and when i am the one that takes damage besides the tank i think it`s better to protect me than a dps that takes no damage at all... in case he draws aggro from the tank, the tank may use his taunt...
If the tank isn't using his taunts (or any other abilities) to get the aggro away from you, why would he do it to get aggro away from the dps? If ou think it's bad to be healing yourself and a tank, try healing yourself and a dps. That's even harder.
There is a face beneath this mask but it's not me.
Red Eclipse - 22 characters - The Firslay Legacy

Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.04.2014 , 05:58 AM | #15
Quote:
If the tank isn't using his taunts (or any other abilities) to get the aggro away from you, why would he do it to get aggro away from the dps? If ou think it's bad to be healing yourself and a tank, try healing yourself and a dps. That's even harder.
ok... you all win...

End of discussion...

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
04.04.2014 , 10:34 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
ok... you all win...

End of discussion...
*le sigh*

This isn't a matter of "winning the argument". There is honestly a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about HOW HEALING THREAT WORKS. This is simply an attempt to explain it.

1. Take the amount of healing you're doing. Do not count overheals, just effective heals.
2. Reduce by 60% (threat is 50% of heals done, less 10% for threat reduction skill - e.g. Foresight)
3. Divide by the number of mobs present.

Let's say there are 4 mobs present, and you are doing 2000 effective HPS.
2000 - 50% - 10% / 4 = 200 threat per second per mob.

Now, let's say you have guard and get an additional 25% threat reduction. You are now generating only 150 threat per second per mob.

200 tps vs 150 tps is irrelevant. The only way you have aggro is if NOBODY is attacking the mob.

1. GUARDING THE HEALER WILL NOT PREVENT THE HEALER FROM BEING ATTACKED.
2. DPS / TANK PICKING UP THE MOBS IS THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THE HEALER FROM BEING ATTACKED.

Now, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a good tank can hold aggro WITHOUT guarding ANYONE. Which means that if you really really want the guard for the 5% damage reduction, then fine and whatever. But wanting it for the 25% threat reduction? That's just a fart in a monsoon.

DuEldrvarya's Avatar


DuEldrvarya
04.04.2014 , 10:45 AM | #17
So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.
If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.
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JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
04.04.2014 , 11:11 AM | #18
maybe were the dps to don't pay attention to mobs and having those solo ranged weaks aggroing the healer instead of being dead

JouerTue's Avatar


JouerTue
04.04.2014 , 11:16 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by DuEldrvarya View Post
So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.
If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.
i don't agree with you..healers can pop dcd aswell or their threat drop. healer's gonna never aggro if you are a good tank and with good dps , while dps can aggro even with the same level of gear you have (endgame also). and a healer can even kill a weak mob if needed..not that you are going to die against trash..

Icarus-Iso's Avatar


Icarus-Iso
04.04.2014 , 12:17 PM | #20
At the end of the day Guard should be used by the Tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.

In a perfect group that would mean guarding the most aggro-stealing DPS, whether it be due to a burst-type scenario or sustained. However, not every group is perfect. Sometimes not all DPS know (or seem willing to follow) kill orders. Sometimes the Tank's gear and tactics are good enough for the healer to start DPSing (and if they're geared and knowledgeable deal more DPS than the actual DPS).

You can listen to people argue one way or another until TOR closes down, but at the end of the day you as the Tank need to make a decision based on your unique group on each particular run.

Case in point: Cadi HM, myself as my usual healer who is very overgeared, with the Tank and DPS in mixes of 66 and 69. I'm given guard. On the bonus boss, since I position myself where I can't be pulled in and just keep some Heals Over Time up on the group, I'm off-DPSing as well as healing. I pull aggro. Off the Tank. Through the guard. I tone down the DPS after that we live happily ever after. In that scenario it was right to guard the healer due to the make-up of the group.

Also don't be afraid to change your Guarded target. A marksman-spec DPS might need it when they can sit still, while the marauder might need it during the next fight. Keep that thing hot-keyed
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