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Healer w/Guard


Jedi_Knight_Jess's Avatar


Jedi_Knight_Jess
04.03.2014 , 10:47 PM | #1
Ran Malestorm for the first time, wiped a few times, but I managed to get through it. Personally discovered that I really liked being a defensive tank

But the healer kept asking for guard....so I put up guard.....is the healer bad? am I doing something wrong w/tanking?

I would use taunt, my interupts, etc to keep mobs away from everyone as best I could.

NoFishing's Avatar


NoFishing
04.03.2014 , 10:58 PM | #2
You're healer was dumb, and making both of your jobs harder.

Since you were not asleep and at least trying to get aggro, you were probably very successful, which means the 5% damage reduction from guard would have done nothing for him because nothing should be hitting him. And the threat reduction would have been better used on a DPS, so you could hold aggro easier and mitigate more damage, thus making the healer's job actually easier.

Still, you did the right thing, because it just isn't worth the drama/argument.

Loc_n_lol's Avatar


Loc_n_lol
04.03.2014 , 11:17 PM | #3
A lot of players (of all roles) don't really understand how threat works in this game, and I can't blame them because the in-game tooltip doesn't exactly make it crystal clear. The guard is almost useless on a healer (speaking of pve only ofc). But if you're not worried about losing aggro to either of the dps players, you can guard the healer by default.

And yes, you're right, it's probably not worth arguing about in the middle of the flashpoint. As a tank, you don't want to get on the bad side of your healer(s).

Now if the healer is drawing aggro, most likely it's because a mob somewhere has been left alone by everyone else. Whose fault it is exactly is debatable, but as a tank, you can't be everywhere (though you should strive to be !), and everyone can make efforts to make your job easier : dps should kill weak adds quickly and engage anyone you can't handle yourself, and a healer under fire should learn to los, stun, and stay close to you rather than running away or being a sitting duck.
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Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.04.2014 , 12:20 AM | #4
Quote:
You're healer was dumb, and making both of your jobs harder.
who to guard should be decided by the situation...

Currently i'm leveling again as a healer (sorcerer). You will find a lot beginner-tanks that are often focused on the strongest target. DPS are very often going after the tank's target or are looking for the next stronger NPC - obviously they are all beginners...
since i am not a beginner, my equipment fits perfectly to my char and is allways on top level with blue item-modifications and of course two +41 AP crystals. Even as a healer i am getting aggro from mobs that are attacked by dps. Who do you think was attacked by the other mobs that are not tanked or attacked by anyone ?

The last three day i have seen 4 bosses going enrage in low level flashpoints...
i am not complaining about "bad players" - at least the tank and me survived these enrageing bosses... but please don`t tell me (or other players) that it is just a "dumb" healer when he is asking for guard...

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
04.04.2014 , 12:35 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
who to guard should be decided by the situation...
There are precious few situations in this game where guarding the healer is the right solution for threat-related reasons (TfB comes to mind).

Other than that, the only "situation" that decides giving the healer guard is when they demand it and you don't feel like arguing.

If you, as a healer, are getting attacked, it's because nobody else has attacked that mob. Guarding you doesn't magically make someone else attack the mob -- so guess what: You'll still be at the top of the threat table.

That said, HMFPs can be done without using guard AT ALL. Just by being a good tank and judicious use of taunts, you can keep aggro. So frankly, there's no real harm in guarding the healer, even if all you get is the 5% damage reduction.

But if you think that guarding the healer will solve a threat problem, you're mistaken (with a couple of exceptions in operation fights with very specific mechanics).

Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.04.2014 , 01:13 AM | #6
Quote:
If you, as a healer, are getting attacked, it's because nobody else has attacked that mob.
wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.

Quote:
Guarding you doesn't magically make someone else attack the mob
There is no magic in it...

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?

Quote:
so guess what: You'll still be at the top of the threat table.
of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...


but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...

Jedi_Knight_Jess's Avatar


Jedi_Knight_Jess
04.04.2014 , 02:09 AM | #7
Interesting tips guys, thanks. I'll make a note of that next time I get Malestorm or another FP like that.

Things got slightly odd...when I noticed the healer stopped using his heals when when got to...Krupp I think his name is? The psycho cyborg guy.....

Dialogue was more or less like this

DPS: *To Healer* Why didn't you use your other healing spells?

I typed out I'm sorry I died, I was the last gal standing

Healer: I have other healing spells?

Me: O_O..... oh dear...

DPS: You're not specced as a healer....

Me: (Oh boy..........)

Surpsingly we all pulled through after some careful planning, but it was....odd for a moment

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
04.04.2014 , 02:45 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.
Wrong, when you enter combat with a group of enemies, any enemies within a certain radius of the ones who are aggro'd all enter combat at the same time.



Quote:
There is no magic in it...

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?
You are producing a fraction of the threat a DPS or tank produces, such that literally they would have to not attack mobs for you to pull off them, in which case (as has already been explained to you and ignored), guard would not help you anyways.



Quote:
of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...
Its been explained. Combat is initiated, mobs will attack whoever initiated combat but 0 threat is going to those mobs at that time. If nobody attacks them and you cast 1 heal, they will go to you. If nobody continues to attack them, you're tanking them. If a DPS or tank attacks them even ONCE, they will do more threat than several big heals of yours could hope to do, and they will pull off you, even if you don't have a guard.

Quote:
but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...
Its not because there are stubborn people like you who don't understand the game mechanics, refuse to try to understand them (have you ever actually read a combat log before?), and stubbornly complain with anecdotal evidence (but see this one time this happened so that's the way it works!) until they're blue in the face and you give them their guard.

Oh btw as for your other comment about bosses enraging in a lowbie flashpoint, that doesn't happen. Enrage doesn't become a mechanic until level 50 hard modes.

Now please, learn how to read combat logs and educate yourself on how threat works in this game, and stop cluttering up this forum with even more bad and wrong advice for new players. As for the OP, you did the right thing in giving the guard to the healer if only so he won't complain and ragequit, like the poster I'm replying to probably would.
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Lord_of_Mu's Avatar


Lord_of_Mu
04.04.2014 , 02:48 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Vortumnus View Post
wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.





There is no magic in it...

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?



of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...


but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...
Just a few points. First, someone else may initiate combat, either by proximity (Body agro) or deliberately (Pulling).

From that point on, any action that adds a new buff to a party member, heals a player that has taken damage (effective healing) or deals damage to a hostile target. Will be considered the top priority for the target. Whether the tank has attacked the mob or not.

Example: You are the healer and have guard. Tank pulls a pack of 5 mobs. 4 mobs are clustered and one weak mob is set apart from the group. You cast force shield on the tank followed by rejuvenate.

During the first few seconds of the pull, all of the mobs including the standalone weak mob have been attacking the tank.

However, none of the dps or the tank have landed any blows on that one weak mob.

The moment you cast your shield on the tank, the weak mob switches to you. The first tick from rejuvenate created additional threat on the threat table of the weak mob. Now, having guard on you means that with your own passive talents, (assuming you are healing spec). The amount of threat you produced was lower than with out guard.

But because no one else has landed a blow on the weak mob, the weak mob will continue to attack you as you are still sole and top threat on the list. Despite all of your threat reduction from talents and guard. You still have 100% of the weak mob's threat.

The solution to this example is quite easy, as I already stated. Healers have passive threat reduction built into their talents. Healing threat is also based on effective healing and can partly be mitigated by using absorb mechanics like force shield.

Either the tank or the dps just has to hit the mob and exceed the small amount of threat you have produced to cause the mob to attack the tank or dps that attacked it.


Put simply, most dps and tanks tunnel vision.

Vortumnus's Avatar


Vortumnus
04.04.2014 , 04:30 AM | #10
Quote:
However, none of the dps or the tank have landed any blows on that one weak mob.
I am not talking about only ONE weak mob... i can deal with those "single mobs" on my own...

This discussion does not make sense... you are only talking about "normal" groups where everyone knows what to do.
But you have not only to deal with "normal" situations or groups...