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The Ultimate Answer to Complains about gunships ?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Galactic Starfighter
The Ultimate Answer to Complains about gunships ?

Zharik's Avatar


Zharik
03.22.2014 , 07:20 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by QuinMantha View Post
It's called tunnel vision, and/or extremely persistent scouts.
You know Rhint, that neither of these are ship weaknesses...

Face facts, you do play the gunship a lot... and when you need to play to your fullest (vs a skilled team), you ALWAYS pick the gunship. That says a lot when an experienced pilot picks the same ship to "fall back to" when faced with tough opponents. Most "fall back" ships are T1 gunships, or T2 scouts. Which leads to the logical conclusion that they are the strongest.

Note I said most... don't use Itkovian, Shayd, Courtney, etc as your counter argument for "the other ships are fine".

Things are mostly balanced... but there are still issues.
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Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
03.22.2014 , 08:54 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Zharik View Post
Face facts, you do play the gunship a lot... and when you need to play to your fullest (vs a skilled team), you ALWAYS pick the gunship. That says a lot when an experienced pilot picks the same ship to "fall back to" when faced with tough opponents. Most "fall back" ships are T1 gunships, or T2 scouts. Which leads to the logical conclusion that they are the strongest.
No, it leads to the logical conclusion that those players are most comfortable with those ships. The fact that Itkovian, Shayd, Sevaerian, etc don't fall back to those specific ships is a direct counterpoint to your argument, and thus absolutely deserves to be brought up.

Are T1 gunships and T2 scouts more powerful than most other ships? Yes. Can we conclude that they're more powerful because a lot of people favor them? No. They're more powerful because they're more powerful, not because they're more popular.
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wvwraith's Avatar


wvwraith
03.22.2014 , 11:56 PM | #23
If you guys are talking balance, then you need to bring flash fires into the conversation too. They're not exactly balanced either.
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Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
03.23.2014 , 12:19 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by wvwraith View Post
If you guys are talking balance, then you need to bring flash fires into the conversation too. They're not exactly balanced either.
What about them do you find to still be unbalanced about them? Defense is adjusted well, and while I think they can dodge missiles a little too easily, that's partially a function of missile breaks, which are being adjusted. They're considerably more fragile than strikes if they take hits: I notice the difference when I fly mine.
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FridgeLM's Avatar


FridgeLM
03.23.2014 , 04:07 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Pilgrim_Grey View Post
What about them do you find to still be unbalanced about them? Defense is adjusted well, and while I think they can dodge missiles a little too easily, that's partially a function of missile breaks, which are being adjusted. They're considerably more fragile than strikes if they take hits: I notice the difference when I fly mine.
Their outrageous damage potential thanks to BLC and overcharge outstrips every other short-to-medium range craft and what they lack in survivability only matters against bombers. For everything else, pilots of equal skill will find it easier to out-fly an opponent in a battle scout, thus battle scouts reign supreme and completely uncontested in one of the most important scenarios in GSF - dogfighting.

They're broken as hell. Minelayers (not drone carriers) counter them really hard, however, which combined with gunships (which are also broken) keep battle scouts from being the #1 uncontested ship for every situation like they were in 2.5.

They still need to be adjusted down.

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Or OR I'm trading short range damage for long range.

-gasp- The humanity!

But really, there are times where you just have to reach out and touch someone.
That's what teammates are for. The minelayer's duty is to make things hell for battle scouts, and seismic mines are the best tool to carry out that duty.
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Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
03.23.2014 , 08:36 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by wvwraith View Post
If you guys are talking balance, then you need to bring flash fires into the conversation too. They're not exactly balanced either.
I think that's not quite right. BLCs are overpowered, but flashfires as a whole aren't so much. By that I mean, it's less that the flashfire as a whole is overpowered and more that a specific component (possibly two) is overpowered.

BLCs on their own provide a lot of burst damage. Since burst damage is generally what gets kills, BLCs are pretty dangerous. I wouldn't mind seeing them toned down a bit -- but at the same time, any scout build can bring a lot of burst with targeting telemetry or blaster overcharge, especially when combined with rocket pods. Really, the biggest benefit of BLCs is that you don't have to take an offensive cooldown to have good killing power, unlike, say, quads or medium cannons, which kind of suck unless combined with pods. Even then, a lot of targets will escape you if you don't use a cooldown (or two).

Of course, you can combine BLCs with cooldowns for massive burst potential... but I personally find that to be mostly unnecessary. Concentrated fire is enough for me, and comes with a significantly lower opportunity cost.

A lot of people also talk about the flashfire's mobility. It's true that you can build a flashfire for a lot of mobility -- but you'll never equal the mobility you get on a blackbolt or novadive. S/E converter provides even more engine power than booster recharge, while still allowing you to take an offensive cooldown. It takes more skill to pull off, but T1 scouts also get booster recharge and barrel roll if you're not comfortable with S/E converter. There's nothing the flash can do in this department that other scouts can't.

Finally, you can make the argument that the flashfire has no "bad" component slots -- every slot makes the flashfire better at what it's supposed to do. Even T1 gunships don't have that advantage (because lol, sensors). On the other hand, what the flashfire really gets out of that deal is +20% shield power... and 20% of not a lot is not a huge amount. Even with a reactor, scouts squish pretty easily; survivability comes from skilled flying more than it does stats.

The flashfire playstyle rewards skilled play (of a specific playstyle, even) more than it provides straight up advantages. While BLCs are a bit too powerful and do need to be toned down a touch, I think the ship as a whole is in a fairly good place.
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mattycutts's Avatar


mattycutts
03.23.2014 , 09:20 AM | #27
last night in my gunship, I actually had 7 of 8 chasing me in a TDM finding it extremely hard to kill me, does this mean its coz of a OP ship? hell no means they were muppits that had no idea and no space awareness around them.

when im on a scout, fighter I don't struggle take out ya typical gunships, when u face top gs' and top any other class then its down to who hits a crit, who misses a shot who got the drop on who.

if you cant kill a GS then you really should either play one to understand them, or just quit.
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wvwraith's Avatar


wvwraith
03.23.2014 , 11:03 AM | #28
Flash fires are the most broken ship in the game. They're classified as a scout, yet they have access to the two best laser cannons in the game, burst and quads. Not only that. they have access to double clusters, superior agility, speed, and superior turning ability. Let's not forget directional shields too. Its a supped up strike fighter. No other ship packs as much offensive/speed into one package. They can shred shields in mere seconds, and I'm talking about bomber shields like they were butter. Shields are basically useless against flash fires. I've seen these two shot people and they're still using bypass(change didn't help much.) Pop agility to head to head, bypass, burst, dead. Again full shields don't matter. Its not because of power-ups either.Scouts should never have that much offensive power. Strikes I thought were intended to be the heavy weapons dog fighters, at least they should anyways.
I'm glad some people see burst as being too powerful. Shields should play some kind of role in gsf, right now there's just too much stuff shredding shields/bypassing them. Nova dives are fine and I think they're balanced decent. I just don't think flash fires are. They're not balanced. Out of all the ships they're the least balanced, period.
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Pilgrim_Grey's Avatar


Pilgrim_Grey
03.23.2014 , 01:07 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by wvwraith View Post
Flash fires are the most broken ship in the game. They're classified as a scout, yet they have access to the two best laser cannons in the game, burst and quads. Not only that. they have access to double clusters, superior agility, speed, and superior turning ability. Let's not forget directional shields too. Its a supped up strike fighter. No other ship packs as much offensive/speed into one package. They can shred shields in mere seconds, and I'm talking about bomber shields like they were butter. Shields are basically useless against flash fires. I've seen these two shot people and they're still using bypass(change didn't help much.) Pop agility to head to head, bypass, burst, dead. Again full shields don't matter. Its not because of power-ups either.Scouts should never have that much offensive power. Strikes I thought were intended to be the heavy weapons dog fighters, at least they should anyways.
I'm glad some people see burst as being too powerful. Shields should play some kind of role in gsf, right now there's just too much stuff shredding shields/bypassing them. Nova dives are fine and I think they're balanced decent. I just don't think flash fires are. They're not balanced. Out of all the ships they're the least balanced, period.
As Armondd said, BLC are probably a little overpowered and that's the majority of the problem. But your complaints are about what they do to bombers? Out in the open and not to their strengths, I suppose a battle scout will have fun with a bomber, but that's it. If you're a minelayer, you can drop a mine on their face for getting so close to you and it'll mostly kill them thanks to their weak hull and shields. If you drop a drone in the same position and go evasive, they're going to still have a hard time taking you out without taking a lot of damage.

And that's only in a true 1 vs 1, which is rare. The longer a scout has to slow down to take you out, the more likely you'll drop something out on them or a teammate will come and make their day bad. I don't like getting shot by gunships on my scouts, because they don't have the shields or armor to take those hits easily.

Also... while BLC are a lot of burst damage, a bomber has an insane amount of shields and armor. I don't run BLCs except on my gunships, and even on characters with scaled up weapons, it's not hard to run out of weapon power trying to punch through all that, even when you throw a concussion into the mix. That's partially being trigger happy if you aren't hitting the reticle, but it's also a testament to how many shields you do have. Seriously, a Bomber is a hard counter to the battle scout... not seeing where your complaints are coming from about the ship as a whole. If you're taking one on in a head to head and don't have mines or drones out, though, you're trying to give them a lot to one up you. Even then, your weapons alone should be doing a lot of damage to them (also... it's not like you have to take them on head to head... I'm wary of anyone who seems willing to try that maneuver and often refuse that type of encounter, since they obviously want it).

And as for Quads being the best lasers in the game... they're just workhorses and aren't all that different from the medium lasers. I use them a lot, but I don't see an issue with scouts getting them. I have more of an issue with BLC having shield piercing and being available to scouts and gunships, however.
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Armonddd's Avatar


Armonddd
03.23.2014 , 03:04 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by wvwraith View Post
Flash fires are the most broken ship in the game.
Please understand that I respect you as a cool dude, which is why I'm writing this post to correct you (and in some cases agree with you).

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They're classified as a scout, yet they have access to the two best laser cannons in the game, burst and quads. Not only that. they have access to double clusters, superior agility, speed, and superior turning ability.
I think mobility and maneuverability are fine on a scout. That's the whole point of the class -- to be a more mobile and maneuverable fighter than the strike fighter, while sacrificing durability and versatility.

As for laser cannons... if you took them away, you'd be all but gutting the scout. In a game where gathering information is nearly meaningless due to a combination of small battlefields and enormous default sensor and communication ranges on every ship, the scout needs something to stand out. Scouts don't get the durability of a strike fighter, nor do they have access to heavy weaponry such as concussion missiles and proton torpedoes, so the devs decided to give them superior burst capabilities. While I think their current burst capabilities are too strong (at least in combination with their current mobility), I don't think the concept of a highly mobile, burst-centric fighter is inherently problematic.

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Let's not forget directional shields too.
Actually, let's forget them.

Seriously, as long as distortion field both boosts evasion (even passively!) and provides a second missile break, directional shields have very little use. Distortion field specifically counters the two biggest threads to a scout -- high burst damage from lasers and high hull damage from missiles -- while directional shields only address one -- high incoming damage from e.g. a gunship or a target you're jousting with. Literally anything that directional shields do is done better by distortion field. Until something is done to change that, it's not worth balancing scouts around directional shields.

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Its a supped up strike fighter. No other ship packs as much offensive/speed into one package.
Again, I don't see a problem with the concept here, just the implementation. Compared to scouts, everything has less mobility and maneuverability, but strikes get extra defense and unique weaponry; gunships get range, power and debuffs; and bombers get mines and drones (which essentially wall off an area from anything but highly coordinated assault) and healing/support capabilities.

[quote]They can shred shields in mere seconds, and I'm talking about bomber shields like they were butter. Shields are basically useless against flash fires.[quote]

Gunships do the same thing, but better. Type 1 strikes also get ion weapons to strip shields ridiculously fast. Bombers flat out ignore your shields with some of their weapons. GSF is, for better or for worse, a fast-paced, burst-centric game by design -- if I hit you once with BLC, you need to be on the ball and dodge before you get hit again. It's just that kind of a game.

With all the burst damage in the game, the thing that makes BLC stand out is its short cooldown compared to, say, slug railguns and concussion missiles. This obviously would be less of an issue if BLC did less damage per shot.

Also, in my experience bomber shields aren't quite butter, but then I use booster recharge.

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I've seen these two shot people and they're still using bypass(change didn't help much.) Pop agility to head to head, bypass, burst, dead. Again full shields don't matter. Its not because of power-ups either.
Bypass is honestly the worst possible copilot ability a scout can bring to the table (except against really exceptionally skilled pilots -- like, there's only a half dozen or so pilots I've ever seen where I really wanted it). Scout weapons just don't get enough shield piercing that bypass will make literally any difference -- a two-shot with bypass will, in the majority of situations, be a two-shot without bypass.

Also, two-shotting targets is the exception, not the rule. In order to get any semblance of burst capabilities, BLCs need to be at very close range -- not more than about 2 km, ideally less. At that close range, almost any movement by the target will make a shot miss -- a slight juke is all that's needed to force me to readjust my aim. Even then, two-shots only happen against other scouts, and sometimes only happen with a crit. Against strikes, assuming no crits, I generally need three or four shots to land a kill. Gunships are similar. Bombers are extremely tricky to burst down, because you can't afford to get behind them (a single mine will take out something like 85% of your hull), you can't afford to be directly in front of them (heavy lasers will wreck you), and approaching from other angles makes it easy for them to get in front of you. Your best bet here is to stay a fair distance back and pelt them with clusters and spitballs, unless you know for sure that their mines are on cooldown or you can have someone distract them for you.

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Scouts should never have that much offensive power. Strikes I thought were intended to be the heavy weapons dog fighters, at least they should anyways.
As above, the tradeoffs justify the increased blaster power (to a point).

I think strikes do fill the role of heavy weapons dogfighters. The range advantage on many missiles and, especially, their laser options is significant. Consider the advantage heavy lasers with range capacitor and concussion missiles have over burst cannons: you're looking at 6.9-7 km range vs ~2 km. That's an enormous difference, and that disadvantage kills the scout in a number of situations. Further, while clusters hold the advantage in lock-on and travel times, concs and torps have inherent shield piercing on levels scouts can only dream about. A conc or torp lock is always dangerous, and the answer is, in many cases, to completely sacrifice your position and abandon the fight; a cluster lock is only dangerous if you get hit again before your shields regen.

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I'm glad some people see burst as being too powerful.
I think it could be significantly toned down by tightening the damage scaling. If you had to be within 1.5 km instead of 2 km before your accuracy and damage took a nosedive, I think they'd be more balanced.

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Shields should play some kind of role in gsf, right now there's just too much stuff shredding shields/bypassing them.
A ship with no shields and enormous hull would not last very long in a dogfight, simply because it would have no way of repairing damage while every other ship repairs damage passively.

Quite honestly, most of my kills come from other people flat out not knowing what they're doing. I'll hit someone from range and take out half their shields, and they'll just... not do anything. They keep flying in the same direction as they were, towards whatever goal they have in mind, and not even pop a defensive cooldown.

If you get hit, move. It doesn't matter what you're doing or what goal you're || this close to, you need to go evasive immediately. You cannot afford to take another hit, especially if the first one came from a gunship or BLCs.

If more people understood that they're flying a small boat with five centimeters of durasteel between themselves and the vacuum, and only as much deflection shielding as their military could afford to cheaply fit in to the spare cargo space without sacrificing speeds above mach 2-3 before setting the engine into overcharge and tripling that speed, I would not get nearly as many kills as I do today.

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Nova dives are fine and I think they're balanced decent.
Callem and Sevaerian are both at least as effective in their blackbolts as I am in my flashfire. The two ships are balanced about equally, really; they just support different playstyles. I'd say that the flashfire/sting is easier to pick up and figure out, but the blackbolt/novadive can be more rewarding (if only because it's less expected).

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I just don't think flash fires are. They're not balanced. Out of all the ships they're the least balanced, period.
I'd give that honor to gunships and their "target foe loses 53 weapon power, 53 engine power, and all shields, and cannot regenerate power for 6 seconds" railgun, personally.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pilgrim_Grey View Post
I have more of an issue with BLC having shield piercing and being available to scouts and gunships, however.
Agree with your post up to this -- almost no one uses shield piercing on BLC, because the armor penetration is such a big damage buff, especially against bombers. Shield piercing is really only good when the target is evasive enough that you're forced to wear him down with direct hull damage because you can only get off a shot or two before he gets away and regens shields. That's exceptionally rare in the matchups I've seen.
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