Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 05:03 PM | #21
Arbitrary list? Are you aware of the meaning of the word:

based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

Yah, totally arbitary.

The lists we made judges abilities in three categories, if one individual is greater at certain abilities but weaker in others then they can still be deemed superior, if these showings indicate stronger ability in the Force. Fay is a perfect example. Leia, Horn and Saba etc. would be judged fairly, there abilities in these categories are formidable, but ultimately they are surpassed by others in superior categories who pick up the slack in their specialties as well.

Or are you suggesting we put Cighal above Luke Skywalker?

On a more general note, we can't compare people in categories they don't share, but having the broader categories of Sense, Alter and Control help marginalize this problem by acting as umbrella's for comparison. Nor should we ever forget that ultimately we are judging raw ability to wield the Force as opposed to skill, knowledge and innate talent.

So let's save that 'serious look over' for when you can come up with a better system that isn't just fluff.

Regardless we are talking about duelling ability are we not? The rules are different there. And was it not you yourself that argued Ulic Qel Droma deserved a place on this list? I don't recall hearing any mention of Plo Koon.

Anyway, I only make these comparisons because Ulic and Koon are pretty identical. Both are wielders of Djem So, physically capable, use standard Force Abilities (discounting some of Koon's less used abilities) and are pretty straight up fighters. In such a case, how else are we supposed to judge individuals so stylistically similar?

The way I see it, if Ulic is a superior Force User and superior duelist he can outmatch Koon in Djem So through superior strength and skill. Force ability I'd give to Ulic hands down, his abilities are just far more raw and potent, telekinetically and telepathically, in comparison to Koon. Lightsaber ability is a little closer, but the way I see it being the best duelist in the current order and able to go toe-to-toe with Exar Kun are things that seem to outshine Koon's own skill.

I'm not saying this is definite, but if I were to give an edge, I'd give it to Ulic, in both respects.

And yes Koon seems better at applying his Force powers, but in terms of bolstering one's speed and strength raw ability as opposed to skill takes center stage - regardless Ulic has shown mastery over Force Speed either way.

Anyway I really don't care who wins or loses this match, I've made my points, I'll let Aurbere decide.

LadyKulvax's Avatar


LadyKulvax
03.18.2014 , 05:11 PM | #22
I think Dark Rage gives Ulic a massive advantage Form V vs Form V, his strength will be many magnitudes greater.

We also have to consider the fact that even without a connection to the Force, Ulic was so skilled in lightsaber combat that he could still kill powerful Dark Jedi, which is impressive all by itself.
I am the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order. I've struck you down once already. Today, I'm finishing the job.
Jedi Order

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 05:12 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by LadyKulvax View Post
I think Dark Rage gives Ulic a massive advantage Form V vs Form V, his strength will be many magnitudes greater.

We also have to consider the fact that even without a connection to the Force, Ulic was so skilled in lightsaber combat that he could still kill powerful Dark Jedi, which is impressive all by itself.
More or less what I was thinking. I think Ulic is just the superior Form V duelist.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 05:20 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Arbitrary list? Are you aware of the meaning of the word:

based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

Yah, totally arbitary.

The lists we made judges abilities in three categories, if one individual is greater at certain abilities but weaker in others then they can still be deemed superior, if these showings indicate stronger ability in the Force. Fay is a perfect example. Leia, Horn and Saba etc. would be judged fairly, there abilities in these categories are formidable, but ultimately they are surpassed by others in superior categories who pick up the slack in their specialties as well.

Or are you suggesting we put Cighal above Luke Skywalker?

On a more general note, we can't compare people in categories they don't share, but having the broader categories of Sense, Alter and Control help marginalize this problem by acting as umbrella's for comparison. Nor should we ever forget that ultimately we are judging raw ability to wield the Force as opposed to skill, knowledge and innate talent.

So let's save that 'serious look over' for when you can come up with a better system that isn't just fluff.

Regardless we are talking about duelling ability are we not? The rules are different there. And was it not you yourself that argued Ulic Qel Droma deserved a place on this list? I don't recall hearing any mention of Plo Koon.

Anyway, I only make these comparisons because Ulic and Koon are pretty identical. Both are wielders of Djem So, physically capable, use standard Force Abilities (discounting some of Koon's less used abilities) and are pretty straight up fighters. In such a case, how else are we supposed to judge individuals so stylistically similar?

The way I see it, if Ulic is a superior Force User and superior duelist he can outmatch Koon in Djem So through superior strength and skill. Force ability I'd give to Ulic hands down, his abilities are just far more raw and potent, telekinetically and telepathically, in comparison to Koon. Lightsaber ability is a little closer, but the way I see it being the best duelist in the current order and able to go toe-to-toe with Exar Kun are things that seem to outshine Koon's own skill.

I'm not saying this is definite, but if I were to give an edge, I'd give it to Ulic, in both respects.

And yes Koon seems better at applying his Force powers, but in terms of bolstering one's speed and strength raw ability as opposed to skill takes center stage - regardless Ulic has shown mastery over Force Speed either way.

Anyway I really don't care who wins or loses this match, I've made my points, I'll let Aurbere decide.
I agree with how those lists are made and mostly the conclusions made in them, but that does not mean we should ignore a direct ability comparison or assume that one being stronger in TK results in Faster Force Speed or Valor. These are different powers and different powers that draw on completely different schools of power. Not to mention as I have already PROVEN people have different levels of strength with powers in the SAME school. The lists are fine using them as a justification when making a direct comparison of abilities with people is not. Those lists are about "most powerful" not about who would win against who. We stated that in the lists themselves. And that some out of combat abilities were taken into consideration because of this.

While I argued Droma on the list it was partially his ability to fight in total darkness that helps. This match isn't in a dark room. The area will always be lit, this means such a talent will not come into play. Koon has similar level of skill just not the darkness fighting. Koon was argued for the "most powerful" jedi lists I don't believe Droma was. Remember "power" is more then just raw power its also the ability of the wielder to control this. In a fight its more about utilizing these powers in combat then raw power. The advantage there is Koon, he is more willing to use Force powers and while Droma may have shown more raw power he doesn't do so in the midst of a fight.

Those lists are arbitrary because of their ability to be changed. We had to convince YOU of something, you had the ultimate authority in those lists and its based on the most accurate form of "force power" we could find. This does not make a clear cut though that a person who is number 5 on the list is stronger in every single power (valor and speed) as a guy that comes 3000 years later that would be 12. We even stated a while back that people at the bottom of the lists could often challenge everyone else on those lists and fair dead even almost. Every member on those lists are within a very small percent of each other same with those that were close to making the list but didn't.

This is a case where an assumption that because Droma has shown more Raw power with TK, that he has more Raw power with everything else. That is a jump of logic and one we shouldn't make in a combat. We can use the TK to assume him "more powerful" but when putting him in a fight we shouldn't consider "more powerful" as "more powerful in every single category and every single power in every single category" that's just not how the force works.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 05:27 PM | #25
The REAL Most Powerful Series operates under a system based on reason. Just because I have the ultimate authority does not make them arbitrary, you had to reason with me. I was not some whimsical jester prancing around slapping random names on the list at a whim. So lets stop with the blatant misuse of that particular term.

Anyway, I see your point, however your not considering how Ulic is very much orientated towards these abilities. There is a reason he rarely uses Force Powers in lightsaber duels and elsewhere, because he is a martial fighter, he channels his Force Ability into his strength and speed. And this is apparent through his potent Dark Rage and impressive speed feats. Plo Koon being a wielder of the Djem So style likely does something similar.

Which is why I made the comparison. Regardless as I said things like Force Valor/Rage and Speed tend to come more naturally than other abilities are require much less refined skill or innate ability, few if any are incapable here.

There are not jumps in logic being made here, the facts are quite clear. But yeah, my points are on the table.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 05:42 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The REAL Most Powerful Series operates under a system based on reason. Just because I have the ultimate authority does not make them arbitrary, you had to reason with me. I was not some whimsical jester prancing around slapping random names on the list at a whim. So lets stop with the blatant misuse of that particular term.

Anyway, I see your point, however your not considering how Ulic is very much orientated towards these abilities. There is a reason he rarely uses Force Powers in lightsaber duels and elsewhere, because he is a martial fighter, he channels his Force Ability into his strength and speed. And this is apparent through his potent Dark Rage and impressive speed feats. Plo Koon being a wielder of the Djem So style likely does something similar.

Which is why I made the comparison. Regardless as I said things like Force Valor/Rage and Speed tend to come more naturally than other abilities are require much less refined skill or innate ability, few if any are incapable here.

There are not jumps in logic being made here, the facts are quite clear. But yeah, my points are on the table.
And so was Master Koon, remember that he to focused on Refined controlled and fast force based attacks while utilizing strength and Timing for his martial skills. He had enough Force strength to use Djem So against a Nightsister embewed Zabarak Savage. We don't know how that fight would have ended had it not been for Savage removing the mask, but the fact that Koon was able to hold off that kind of strength blows means I seriously doubt Droma's ability to power through Koon's defenses with out SERIOUS time being taken to really wear him down.

The same I would say for Koon's abiltity to break Droma's defenses, but the advantage I give to Koon comes solely down to his willingness to use force based attacks and their past effectiveness. He is capable of taking what little tiny physical advantage Droma MIGHT have and wearing that away faster then Droma can wear him down by using force based attacks with his saber sequences as he is known to do.

And as I have said I have no problem with the way those lists are made they are about as accurate as we could ever hope them to get, but because it is one person no matter how much that person tries to stay unbiased it is an impossibility. I know you do the best you can, as we all do, but that doesn't mean they are 100% unbiased, that is an impossibility for a human being. And yes while he shows more Raw power in Tk and things like speed and Valor and such usually very innate that doesn't mean they are the same level as the TK, the TK could be something the person is innately good with and again being a completely different school of power doesn't help this either. He was considered strong in those areas for his time, so was Koon its 3000 years of difference and they achieved things in extremely similar manners. Can we really say with any kind of certainty that Koon would not have achieved a similar level of success in those time? to me the awnser is no and his duel with Savage is all I need to look at as proof of that. Savage was a physical monter and Form V is all about overpowering your opponent. Koon was able to take the blows of Savage and deal it back the winner of the fight was decided by a cheap and dirty trick nothing else, meaning the fight likely would have lasted longer. Regardless of the outcome being able to match that kind of strength for a period of time is more then enough to believe he can match Droma's strength to make this battle a test of endurance, one Koon can win with the use of TK based attacks in his saber sequences.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 05:45 PM | #27
Which is what I said, and which is why that Ulic as a superior Force User defeats Koon.

The duel with Savage was inconculsive, it could have well ended with Koon being eventually worn down by Savage's superior strength and defeated. We don't know. Regardless Ulic and Savage differ greatly.

I've already addressed your other points, but don't pretend that outbursts of raw power are not displays of raw power. I'm not about to get in a pointless debate about why Ulic > Koon because if you don't accept that fact you never will.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 05:50 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Which is what I said, and which is why that Ulic as a superior Force User defeats Koon.

And as I also said, Ulic will fall back on Force Powers if he has too, and he's more than capable of dodging projectiles or protecting himself from a Force Push with his barriers, then Ulic will just hit back harder.

And to be honest, Koon doesn't even use the Force that much in his duels.
I would say more powerful not superior. Koon has shown a greater willingness to use force bases attacks in saber sequences. And a Push is harder to defend against with just barriers they have to be ready and root themselves in the force to protect against a Push since it is basically a wall of Telekinetic energy hitting you. Its not some one being gripped by the force which is what most passive barriers protect against. Projectiles are also very difficult to defend against in combat. Just because Ulic can lift larger things doesn't mean he can defend against smaller objects being thrown at a fast pace. This is the difference in refined ability and Raw power. While Ulic has the raw power I feel Koon is more refined. Ulic can lift larger things, but Koon can do the smaller with more accuracy and greater level of skill. In combat the skill is where it makes a difference as large objects are likely not to be used or needed for use or countering.

That advantage goes to Koon in my book.

Edit: actually read the who gets what edge on the initial page it sums it up pretty well in my book.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 05:54 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I would say more powerful not superior. Koon has shown a greater willingness to use force bases attacks in saber sequences. And a Push is harder to defend against with just barriers they have to be ready and root themselves in the force to protect against a Push since it is basically a wall of Telekinetic energy hitting you. Its not some one being gripped by the force which is what most passive barriers protect against. Projectiles are also very difficult to defend against in combat. Just because Ulic can lift larger things doesn't mean he can defend against smaller objects being thrown at a fast pace. This is the difference in refined ability and Raw power. While Ulic has the raw power I feel Koon is more refined. Ulic can lift larger things, but Koon can do the smaller with more accuracy and greater level of skill. In combat the skill is where it makes a difference as large objects are likely not to be used or needed for use or countering.

That advantage goes to Koon in my book.
I was talking duelling wise, rage, speed etc.

Anyway come back with some examples of Koon doing this and Ulic being weak against it and we'll talk.

Nor does Refined > Raw Power. Proof? Here you go.

P.S. Passive barriers protect you against all Force based attacks, including Force Pushes, and often very well.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 05:57 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I was talking duelling wise, rage, speed etc.

Anyway come back with some examples of Koon doing this and Ulic being weak against it and we'll talk.

Nor does Refined > Raw Power. Proof? Here you go.
The Raw power in this case is not that large. And as we already know Koon is more willing to use his powers then Ulic is, we don't know how long it takes Droma to concentrate. The reason he may not use those greater powers in combat may because he cant do it in the midst of battle. Its more likely that the refined will take the advantage over the raw.

Edit: Show me one instance of a guy that did nothing to guard himself against a force push and didn't get thrown off his feet.