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The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
The BattleZone Winner's Bracket Match 5: Ulic Qel-Droma vs. Plo Koon

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.18.2014 , 03:01 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Djem So is strength orientated, so I'd say being stronger in the Force is basically going to make his blows hit harder, and his defense more staunch. It will end up being a war of attrition, and Ulic is better geared in this respect.
Is Ulic more powerful than Plo Koon? I don't see it, so prove it to me.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 03:07 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Is Ulic more powerful than Plo Koon? I don't see it, so prove it to me.
I don't think either is stronger then the other. While I believe Qel Droma's lack of physical detrements (the mask) gives him the advantage in a pure fight. Koon's more willingness to use more Force Powers in combat I think is the real deciding factor here.

Both I think will match each other blow for blow in Saber combat quite literally being a test of endurance, but Koon is much more willing to use Force powers in combat and I think in the end that will be the deciding factor. Pelting Droma with the occasional object or force push to either wear him down or off balance him and open him up for Koon to take control through "superior Firepower". They are nearly evenly matched on every ground I believe Koon's larger variety of TK abilities and his willingness to use them is the real deciding factor of this match.

For me the winner is Plo Koon.

Edit: we need to watch how often we call one person "more powerful" then another when it comes to force powers across era's. I feel its impossible to truly say one is more powerful then the other. They achieved similar success with similar (if not exactly the same) styles. I don't think there is any grounds to 100% assume that either is stronger then the other. Its fine when trying to make a most powerful list, but when trying to judge fighting capabilities we need to judge every feat individually (aka strength of Force Push does not translate to strength of lightning or Force embewed strength or Valor so on and So forth, we know some force users are better with certain powers then they are with others. So "more powerful" is not a blanket thing nor should it be.)

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 03:31 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Is Ulic more powerful than Plo Koon? I don't see it, so prove it to me.
He was named a Dark Lord of the Sith alongside Exar Kun, I don't think that point requires elaboration.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 03:46 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
I don't think either is stronger then the other. While I believe Qel Droma's lack of physical detrements (the mask) gives him the advantage in a pure fight. Koon's more willingness to use more Force Powers in combat I think is the real deciding factor here

Both I think will match each other blow for blow in Saber combat quite literally being a test of endurance, but Koon is much more willing to use Force powers in combat and I think in the end that will be the deciding factor. Pelting Droma with the occasional object or force push to either wear him down or off balance him and open him up for Koon to take control through "superior Firepower". They are nearly evenly matched on every ground I believe Koon's larger variety of TK abilities and his willingness to use them is the real deciding factor of this match.

For me the winner is Plo Koon.

Edit: we need to watch how often we call one person "more powerful" then another when it comes to force powers across era's. I feel its impossible to truly say one is more powerful then the other. They achieved similar success with similar (if not exactly the same) styles. I don't think there is any grounds to 100% assume that either is stronger then the other. Its fine when trying to make a most powerful list, but when trying to judge fighting capabilities we need to judge every feat individually (aka strength of Force Push does not translate to strength of lightning or Force embewed strength or Valor so on and So forth, we know some force users are better with certain powers then they are with others. So "more powerful" is not a blanket thing nor should it be.)
I don't understand how Plo Koon can match Ulic blow for blow in lightsaber combat when Ulic himself managed to stalemate against Exar Kun himself, one of the greatest lightsaber duelists and most powerful Force Users in history.

Indeed does Ulic not hold 9th place on the Most Powerful Sith Lightsaber duelists list? Heck I'm pretty sure he was among if not the best duelist in the Jedi Order after Exar Kun left. I see no such accolades from Koon.

And Ulic is a Sith Lord, if he feels the need to use Force Powers, he will do so gladly.

I don't see any evidence that suggests Koon comes close to Ulic's power really.

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 04:08 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I don't understand how Plo Koon can match Ulic blow for blow in lightsaber combat when Ulic himself managed to stalemate against Exar Kun himself, one of the greatest lightsaber duelists and most powerful Force Users in history.

Indeed does Ulic not hold 9th place on the Most Powerful Sith Lightsaber duelists list? Heck I'm pretty sure he was among if not the best duelist in the Jedi Order after Exar Kun left. I see no such accolades from Koon.

And Ulic is a Sith Lord, if he feels the need to use Force Powers, he will do so gladly.

I don't see any evidence that suggests Koon comes close to Ulic's power really.
Read the edit. Those lists and this have nothing to do with one another. There is no way to assume a master of Djem So and Shien utilizing ataru occasionally such as Koon would not have done the same in Droma's position.

"The Most powerful" and such are useless here. Heck I would want to show you Jensaari's battle between Koon and Vader which illustrates the same. We have Vader on Par with Kun in saber combat and Jensaari had both Kun and Koon on Par with Vader. They achieved similar things with similar techniques. They are thousands of years apart its truly impossible to say one or the other is better/worse then the other in this regard when the fact is they both achieved things in a similar manner. Don't use the most powerful list in these its useless, or at least it should be.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 04:14 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by tunewalker View Post
Read the edit. Those lists and this have nothing to do with one another. There is no way to assume a master of Djem So and Shien utilizing ataru occasionally such as Koon would not have done the same in Droma's position.

"The Most powerful" and such are useless here. Heck I would want to show you Jensaari's battle between Koon and Vader which illustrates the same. We have Vader on Par with Kun in saber combat and Jensaari had both Kun and Koon on Par with Vader. They achieved similar things with similar techniques. They are thousands of years apart its truly impossible to say one or the other is better/worse then the other in this regard when the fact is they both achieved things in a similar manner. Don't use the most powerful list in these its useless, or at least it should be.
The last line was a response to that edit. The most powerful lists are not arbitary, they are the product of detailed anaylsis of the facts. Pretty sure that's useful. Ulic's showings in the Force and his reputation is superior to Koon's.

As is are his lightsaber abiliites. You can't just say "we can't compare them!" and then just compare them but inaccurately and vaguely. I actually take issue with this in some of the Jensaarai's videos, he is often too vague I feel and reduces it to a rock, paper, scissors contest when there is obviously a lot more too it that that.

And the battle between Koon and Vader he never acknowledged it was a close fight, but the opposite.

EDIT: One of the reasons I did the lists was so that we can be more definitive concerning who is superior to who. I have no idea why in the context of a duel there should be any differentiation in direct comparison of Force abilities. How they apply to battle is a different ball park of course, but in terms of an abstract comparison, its the same.

But hey if you want to cop out because you feel you lack the capability of making accurate comparison then fine, but don't tell other people to do the same.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.18.2014 , 04:21 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
He was named a Dark Lord of the Sith alongside Exar Kun, I don't think that point requires elaboration.
Reputation and position is not enough. Prove it with how Ulic has applied his abilities.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
03.18.2014 , 04:25 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Reputation and position is not enough. Prove it with how Ulic has applied his abilities.
If you feel the point requires elaboration, then their is no point attempting to explain it, because anyone who believes that Ulic is not superior to Koon is not going to change their mind.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
03.18.2014 , 04:29 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
If you feel the point requires elaboration, then their is no point attempting to explain it, because anyone who believes that Ulic is not superior to Koon is not going to change their mind.
These vs. matches may not need as much discussion as a Kaggath, but that doesn't mean you can slack off on your arguments.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

tunewalker's Avatar


tunewalker
03.18.2014 , 04:39 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
The last line was a response to that edit. The most powerful lists are not arbitary, they are the product of detailed anaylsis of the facts. Pretty sure that's useful. Ulic's showings in the Force and his reputation is superior to Koon's.

As is are his lightsaber abiliites. You can't just say "we can't compare them!" and then just compare them but inaccurately and vaguely. I actually take issue with this in some of the Jensaarai's videos, he is often too vague I feel and reduces it to a rock, paper, scissors contest when there is obviously a lot more too it that that.

And the battle between Koon and Vader he never acknowledged it was a close fight, but the opposite.

EDIT: One of the reasons I did the lists was so that we can be more definitive concerning who is superior to who. I have no idea why in the context of a duel there should be any differentiation in direct comparison of Force abilities. How they apply to battle is a different ball park of course, but in terms of an abstract comparison, its the same.

But hey if you want to cop out because you feel you lack the capability of making accurate comparison then fine, but don't tell other people to do the same.
Then those lists need a SERIOUS look over, as you are comparing direct power and as I have said a million times already. Different people have different strength with different powers. Just look compare any one from the NJO with their counter parts and you see this. Cihgal is in some ways better then Luke at healing powers. Corran Horn is possibly the strongest user of Tutaminis in the entire NJO. Saba also rivals the most powerful person in life senses. Leia is one of if not the strongest telepath in the NJO. So on and so forth.

How do you Judge that Droma has greater saber skill then Koon? Title? a place on an arbitrary list that we made up?

They were both touted masters of form V utilizing Form IV for extra speed. If you actually intended those lists to meaningful you went about those lists wrong in my opinion. Nothing in them is set in stone and while some one can be considered "more powerful" they could still have points where they are weaker in certain powers.

Best Example I would argue Corran Horn has better Tutaminis ability then Revan, yet Revan is more powerful because of his overall power and power in other skills.

There are more skilled jedi then there are skilled sith. Its possible that the number 20 Jedi could match the number 9 sith. Because the Jedi under 8 are all likely so close to one another its ridiculous. Remember Koon was considered for the lists in almost every case both Force power and Lightsaber skill. He would likely be around 12 or so, so the closeness of their abilities is to close to truly call one truly better then the other.

I personally consider any one on those lists interchangeable in locations a good majority of the time. They just need to be on the list but they are all so extremely close with one or another if they were to come to blows, 9/10 it will be circumstance and stylistic differences that decide the outcome, not "power".


Edit: In my opinion cross era, rock, paper, scissors is the ONLY way it should be done. The training hasn't changed the Force hasn't changed. A form V user is a Form V user. One that uses Form V with a little Form IV is still some one that uses Form V with a little form IV. You can compare force powers, but just because some one is a "more powerful" Telekinetic does not automatically mean his feats with Force Valor are better. They come from completely different schools and even if they didn't we have seen people have different skills in powers that come from the same school. Look again at Leia she can preform all kinds of powerful TK abilities like Wave's pushes and crushes and the like, but when it comes to levitating objects she struggles to hold on to them prefering to push them away if she is attacked by them rather then grab them. Obi-wan is the same way having a more powerful Push then his usual TK abilities. So on and So forth. Those lists are uselss when talking about combat and should always be. If you didn't intend them to be from the start then you did those lists for the wrong reasons in my opinion.