End game raid groups especially the progression groups are heavily biased towards snipers. At least 1 sniper is guaranteed in every raid group while 2 snipers are also very common. This shows a huge bias of raid groups towards snipers. The principal reason is the the prevalent raid wide AoE damage and the sniper's unique ability to mitigate that.

 

Under these circumstances what are the dev's plans to give the other ranged classes a fighting chance to get picked in a progression raid group?

 

An easy solution is to put a 3 min raid wide lockout on the sniper shield as it has been done for bloodthirst.

Solution: Eliminate snipers' ability to deal competent AOE damage?

Solution: Eliminate snipers' ability to deal competent AOE damage?

 

I believe that is taken care of, but the situation is still the same. Raid groups in PTS testing NiM DF have at least 1 and in most cases 2 snipers. Some even had 3 snipers in the a group of 8.

Classes are inbalanced in pve bc BW is focussed on getting pvp balanced.

 

PT DD's have less dps than a marauder. Why would a raid take a pt then?

 

Snipers have a benefical buff for the raid group. Why would you replace that with a class without a beneficial buff?

 

Ranged dps is in most cases better than melee dps ( at operation bosses). Why wouldnt you take only ranged dps + 1 marauder for bloodthirst?

 

Why doesnt BW erase all classes and create 1 new class that can tank/heal and dps. No more unbalancing and whine.

 

BTW: Sniper have been nerfed to the ground with that orbital strike nerf. Lossing roughly 400dps in most single target fights. I parsed 3800dps before the nerf now i am at 3480dps.Snipers arent the best dps nor the best aoe's so they get a beneficial buff to compensate that. Without their shields, there would only be sorcerers + 1 marauder in topraids.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Methoxa

BTW: Sniper have been nerfed to the ground with that orbital strike nerf. Lossing roughly 400dps in most single target fights. I parsed 3800dps before the nerf now i am at 3480dps.Snipers arent the best dps nor the best aoe's so they get a beneficial buff to compensate that. Without their shields, there would only be sorcerers + 1 marauder in topraids.

 

So according to you, snipers are being taken in raid groups for the wrong reason. A DPS is being taken to help out the healers and in doing so the sorcs are missing out on the action as the pyro mercs are forcing their way in with higher DPS. I agree with you.

 

This needs to change. Snipers should not be taken over sages or mercs. They should not have an ability which while stacked provides significant aid to the survivability of the raid. Give an equal chance to the other ranged classes to make it into the raid group.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Helmholtzz

BTW: Sniper have been nerfed to the ground with that orbital strike nerf. Lossing roughly 400dps in most single target fights. I parsed 3800dps before the nerf now i am at 3480dps.Snipers arent the best dps nor the best aoe's so they get a beneficial buff to compensate that. Without their shields, there would only be sorcerers + 1 marauder in topraids.

 

There are numerous snipers who parse in the high 3.7-3.8 range. That's ahead of every other ranged spec except for Pyro Mercs, and ahead of everything (non-Gunslinger) in the Republic faction (due to the current faction-specific imbalance of Pyro vs Assault). If you're only parsing 3480, you're probably doing something wrong (unless you're talking about Engineering without roll, in which case you're probably doing something very right).

 

Utility should never come at the expense of DPS, nor should DPS come at the expense of utility. They are two separate balance axes. Sorcs, Mercs and Snipers should all do roughly the same DPS levels, adjusted up or down depending on factors like burst, setup time, AoE potential, etc. They should also all provide different, but similarly valuable utility.

 

I actually don't feel that Sniper utility is as godlike as most people think it is. The shield is great, yes, but it's only available once every 3 minutes. In terms of a damage reduction benefit to the raid, an assassin tank using Phase Walk intelligently is almost twice as valuable over the course of a fight, and you don't see anyone complaining about that utility being OP (though there's no question that the sniper shield is superior during short-duration burst phases). The other two ranged specs have a lot going for them in terms of utility. Mercs have strong cooldowns, better mobility, heavy armor, off-cleanse, off-rez and off-heals. Sorcs have the best mobility of the three ranged specs, sustainable off-heals, off-cleanse, off-rez and the best AoE of the ranged specs outside of Engineering. In other words, it's not really that Snipers are overpowered in the utility department, it's just that their utilities are overvalued.

 

I'm not sure how to fix that problem, honestly. Nerfs to things like Ballistic Shield are a dangerous path to tread, since then you're effectively disrupting balance in order to force the metagame to consider alternative options.

Edited March 12, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

Forgot to meantion that my sniper isnt bis equipped, playing lethality with ambush + series of shots as a filler between the 2x culls

An easy solution is to put a 3 min raid wide lockout on the sniper shield as it has been done for bloodthirst.

I don't see any problem with this solution.

 

It doesn't nerf the ability, it just means you don't get benefits for stacking the same class multiple times.

snip

 

You may be correct about the sin tank buff but at phases like the last one of dread council or brontes, chaining the shield makes the damage much easier to deal with. One ballistic shield alone is not a big issue but chaining the shield makes it more valuable.

 

The shield lockout will work exactly as the bloodthirst lockout. Its not anything new. BW have already implemented something like this.

Don't know if you noticed, but all the really top hardcore guilds don't ever take specific class to raid, its all player that matters.

If your raid groups or raid groups you are trying to get into are only taking Snipers then that is a problem with the leaders and not the game. Snipers do not offer much more than any other DPS option. Orbital used to be something that pushed Snipers ahead, but now that is gone and Snipers are being outperformed by Mercs DPS-wise while Sorcs are next in line for some buffs, hopefully. The ballistic shield is useful, yes, but has a long cooldown, only a 10 meter range(not as big as you think and requires getting closer to the action to place), disappears upon death, and is especially not necessary whatsoever unless you are completing NiM content, where it helps, but once again is not vital to completion, and it is the only single raid-wide buff that Snipers have. Other rDPS classes have the ability to off-heal, cleanse multiple people, as well as being able to combat rez. Also, maybe these raid groups may already have 1 Merc, 1 Marauder/Operative/Assassin, and 1 Sorc and they don't want to double up on DPS roles or get another mDPS? Maybe they lost a sniper recently and don't know that having a different rDPS class is just as useful, if not more useful, as having a Sniper? Just cause you don't have a sniper and for some reason you think that all raid groups only want snipers doesn't mean you should say **** all people who have decided to play a sniper. Find a better group that actually knows that snipers aren't bad but aren't as awesome super amazing OP as everyone on the forums and general chat seem to propagate... Edited March 12, 2014 by OMGITSJAD

snip

 

Do you see the third guy on my signature with the title? Thats a gun slinger. So the problem is not that I dont have a gun slinger. The problem is when I saw the groups in PTS testing NiM DF, I could not find 1 group without a single sniper. And most of the groups had more than 1 sniper. These are big names in game who go for world first and second. When they make a raid group choice they go for the most efficient and cutting edge choice. Which shows there is a definite bias towards snipers.

 

I asked myself, why? The only answer I could come up with is the ballistic shield. Can you explain why all of the raid groups in NiM DF on PTS had at least 1 sniper and most of them had multiple?

Can you explain why all of the raid groups in NiM DF on PTS had at least 1 sniper and most of them had multiple?

because many fights are not viable to stack melee... that leaves you with three options... and my experience with sorc dps is that they don't like to have other sorc dps in their group... that kind of narrows it down to two classes... though changing shield the same way they did with inspiration would seem fitting rather than what they did to flyby. Though I'd rather see them add things to fights making it less viable to stack only ranged dps as that's always annoyed me more than anybody stacking a single class.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Rebel_Guy

Don't know if you noticed, but all the really top hardcore guilds don't ever take specific class to raid, its all player that matters.

 

Show me a top end guild willingly stacking melee. Half the bosses in this game dramatically punish melee dps and another quarter straight up forbid excessive melee stacking.

 

Which leaves the choice between snipers and mercs generally and one has an AoE raid shield.

 

The sniper bias actually doesn't have much to do with their own power level. It's not something you can just nerf a class and call it fixed. It requires different boss design and mechanics that allow you bring a couple of operative dps, a few vanguards or god forbid more than one marauder for bloodthirst.

 

Plus while it might help somewhat locking shield like BT, personally I'm not a fan until they get proper customizable buffbars in. An example.

> BT debuff

>Potentially combat res

>Sniper shield debuff

> Sorc shield debuff

 

And hazzah death marks are no longer visible from the raidframe as it caps out on four. GG =/

Edited March 13, 2014 by CaptainApop

Don't know if you noticed, but all the really top hardcore guilds don't ever take specific class to raid, its all player that matters.

 

Currently the only hesitant choice I'd say is dps sins, regardless of skill, because low sustained dps and stupidly infuriating crit rate. bioware y u no like pve sins?

Edited March 13, 2014 by mastirkal

Wow. Most high-end raiding guilds will be fine with almost any DPS comp, which is dictated by the skill and preference of their players and not by whichever class is 'opfotm' (which is actually concealment ops and vengeance juggs atm).

 

I don't know why you think stacking snipers is an issue in some way. In my opinion, having any more than 2 snipers will only harm your group and doesn't represent what I consider an ideal DPS composition.

I feel this issue is really minimal. The only time where I've heard a guild purposely bring Gunslingers/Snipers were some guilds for 16Man HM Dread Council for the last phase, and even then two shields cover that whole phase so that's a small fraction of the DPS composition. Everyone in every other situation only brings Slingers/Snipers just because their DPS has that personal preference.

 

Personally, I think there is an overestimation in Gunslinger/Sniper utility as it is now, and after 2.7 they'll be severely hampered in general utility. The Hunker Down/Entrench trench translates to a quality of life change for PvE and not a buff.

 

I think at the moment, your purposed change isn't necessary. Maybe down the road if Slinger/Sniper utility becomes too much compared to others in PvE.

Edited March 13, 2014 by AngelFluttershy

Do you see the third guy on my signature with the title? Thats a gun slinger. So the problem is not that I dont have a gun slinger. The problem is when I saw the groups in PTS testing NiM DF, I could not find 1 group without a single sniper. And most of the groups had more than 1 sniper. These are big names in game who go for world first and second. When they make a raid group choice they go for the most efficient and cutting edge choice. Which shows there is a definite bias towards snipers.

 

I asked myself, why? The only answer I could come up with is the ballistic shield. Can you explain why all of the raid groups in NiM DF on PTS had at least 1 sniper and most of them had multiple?

 

 

We were in there the same time as you guys and we don't have a sniper/slinger in our group, in a matter of fact, both of my raid groups no longer have snipers/slingers because DPS wise, they are under performing Mercs/Commandos. I think players generally like playing slingers more because the rotation is very simple, there are no chance based procs. For progression, I play my sentinel, but I switched over to my slinger after, because I can basically go on cruise control with my slinger. I agree with other posters when they say that its problems with raid groups if they choose only to bring a specific class. I believe DILH had a jugg in their group for the NiM DG kill, and that shows that composition is not that big of a deal.

If you look hard enough, you should be able to easily find a hardcore guild to take you, regardless of your class. My guild has all of the classes as DPS, and we clear the HM Ops every week, often cycling through DPS to give others a chance. The guild you find may not be a world first guild, but does that really matter? Most people in those guilds are too serious anyway.

 

Find yourself a good guild that looks for good players instead of their classes. The only DPS I play is a Marauder, and you'd be surprised at how difficult it is for us to find good spots, since most guilds take at least one per Op. A lot of guilds already have one, and I've found that we generally stay in one place, I don't know why, but it means our spots don't open up often.

If you look hard enough, you should be able to easily find a hardcore guild to take you, regardless of your class. My guild has all of the classes as DPS, and we clear the HM Ops every week, often cycling through DPS to give others a chance. The guild you find may not be a world first guild, but does that really matter? Most people in those guilds are too serious anyway.

 

Find yourself a good guild that looks for good players instead of their classes. The only DPS I play is a Marauder, and you'd be surprised at how difficult it is for us to find good spots, since most guilds take at least one per Op. A lot of guilds already have one, and I've found that we generally stay in one place, I don't know why, but it means our spots don't open up often.

 

Try finding the patience to go through all the posts please. It will help you post something meaningful. I do have a sniper. I also have a merc both of which regularly does all the HM operations. And HM operations are not even challenging. I healed through them on my merc in DPS gear with 97% accuracy and DPS set bonus

 

No good guild would stack 4 sentinels and chain inspiration, It will kill the sentinel's DPS. But It was a component in raid composition so BW took steps to take that away. Same logic applies for snipers. The ballistic shield is a component encouraging stacking snipers. Why not neutralize that?

 

We were in there the same time as you guys and we don't have a sniper/slinger in our group, in a matter of fact, both of my raid groups no longer have snipers/slingers because DPS wise, they are under performing Mercs/Commandos. I think players generally like playing slingers more because the rotation is very simple, there are no chance based procs. For progression, I play my sentinel, but I switched over to my slinger after, because I can basically go on cruise control with my slinger. I agree with other posters when they say that its problems with raid groups if they choose only to bring a specific class. I believe DILH had a jugg in their group for the NiM DG kill, and that shows that composition is not that big of a deal.

 

I tried to go back and look at the NiM S&V kills on the world leaderboard. From most of the screenshots its impossible to say how many snipers are in the groups. So I cant come up with a definite number. I can take the DPS name and search TORPARSE but it will take too long. There might be a few groups with no snipers but the overall number is too high (from my observation). Assuming a raid group takes on average 2 ranged DPS and there are 3 ranged classes, the probability of seeing a sniper in a raid group should be 66%.

 

Player skill and friendship does play a role. But these are exceptions and can not be taken into account in a balance discussion as when balancing you have to assume the skill is at the same level and player choice is blind. Also HM raid groups can have any combination. We killed the dread council the other day with 2 sage DPS. Its the first iteration of NiM fights that we should take into account not the content that is on farm.

 

It is possible to clear all the content with any DPS combination. So seeing the inclusion of 1 specific DPS class in majority of the cutting edge guilds must have a reason.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Helmholtzz

I don't know why you think stacking snipers is an issue in some way. In my opinion, having any more than 2 snipers will only harm your group and doesn't represent what I consider an ideal DPS composition.

 

All I am saying is stacking 2 snipers is encouraging because of ballistic shield. Did you know any good guild who stacked 3 sentinels to do chain inspiration? But according to BW inspiration played a role in raid composition. That logic works for snipers too.

First of all let me say that I main a gunslinger in my raidteam and I'm the only one in the maingroup and even he whole roster of our group.

We play in a decent enviroment and will be going for the NiM DF so we think about group setup obviously.

 

Stacking slingers would decrement our utility in the raid by a lot. We do run 1-2 Sentinels 1Commando and/or 1Sage and my Slinger as DPS and we would not give up the Sage and/or the Commando for another Slinger. At least not with the skillset our players have atm. This allone should tell you that we are able to bring the player and not the class (which is intented).

 

The usage and the stacking of the shields which seems to be your only concern is very limited and really dependend on the fight. There are a very limited amounts of fights where more then a shield or even one shield is a real advantage.

 

The usage of Inspiration was present in every single fight and the change was needed. As a slinger dropping thr shield I have the negativ effect of having to get into position first (which will hurt dps at some point) and I have to time the shield really good to make a difference. Really ofteb the shield isn't even an external cd for others but only used for my personal gain not for the raid as a whole.

 

Stop demanding things that are not a problem in the game. The whining of people have allready cost the alknger his AoA capability, the 3sec Lolbubble, the range Stun for multible targets and by nerfing the XS also the single target dps was nerfed quite a bit.

Only one fully ranged specc is truly competative (which is the hybrid). MM is missing the numbers in extended single target fights and engineering and full DF have a melee component to it if you want to max dps.

Stop nerfing slingers and for crying out loud stop thinking that slingers are overpowered because there are good players out there which can help the raid in a few fights by using abilities to their fullest.

 

I don't want to be pushed in playing commando or sage because they have better tools and better dps at the same time.

Try finding the patience to go through all the posts please. It will help you post something meaningful. I do have a sniper. I also have a merc both of which regularly does all the HM operations. And HM operations are not even challenging. I healed through them on my merc in DPS gear with 97% accuracy and DPS set bonus

 

No good guild would stack 4 sentinels and chain inspiration, It will kill the sentinel's DPS. But It was a component in raid composition so BW took steps to take that away. Same logic applies for snipers. The ballistic shield is a component encouraging stacking snipers. Why not neutralize that?

 

 

 

I tried to go back and look at the NiM S&V kills on the world leaderboard. From most of the screenshots its impossible to say how many snipers are in the groups. So I cant come up with a definite number. I can take the DPS name and search TORPARSE but it will take too long. There might be a few groups with no snipers but the overall number is too high (from my observation). Assuming a raid group takes on average 2 ranged DPS and there are 3 ranged classes, the probability of seeing a sniper in a raid group should be 66%.

 

Player skill and friendship does play a role. But these are exceptions and can not be taken into account in a balance discussion as when balancing you have to assume the skill is at the same level and player choice is blind. Also HM raid groups can have any combination. We killed the dread council the other day with 2 sage DPS. Its the first iteration of NiM fights that we should take into account not the content that is on farm.

 

It is possible to clear all the content with any DPS combination. So seeing the inclusion of 1 specific DPS class in majority of the cutting edge guilds must have a reason.

 

Fine, I'll post something meaningful. What is your problem, exactly? What makes you think that groups are biased towards snipers? Ballistic shield doesn't really even do much, a good enough anything can out DPS a sniper, and most pug groups don't even seem to ask for them. If you want a world first clear, don't expect to get it at this point unless you're already in the guild that's going to get it. I would be more concerned about the fact that powertech, jug, and assassin DPS don't get taken for anything.

Edited March 13, 2014 by orangefishboy

I feel like some people forgot to read KeyboardNinjas post in this thread where he uses examples for stacking OTHER CLASSES THAN SNIPERS/GUNSLINGERS and points out how it's better from a strategic point of view,

 

In other words, it's not really that Snipers are overpowered in the utility department, it's just that their utilities are overvalued.

Edited March 13, 2014 by RikuvonDrake

I'm assuming the OP was talking about on tier nightmare content. I just want to let everyone know that if you consider off-healing a viable raid utility in on tier nightmare your insane. You may be able to throw out one weak heal every now and then if the boss fight has a transition where there is nothing to attack. If your off-healing any more then that your probably gonna hit enrage on most bosses, so considering that a viable raid utility is pretty silly. Now after you over gear the content and 3 other dps can carry the 4th a bit then it can be used, but who cares at that point. Just my opinion. Also people who are basing dps off of dummy parses instead of actual boss fight parses have no idea what they are talking about. In a real boss fight mercs and snipers are doing very close to the same damage with the exception of Nefra which is pretty much a training dummy. People have to start looking at actual boss fight situations and stop looking at dummy parses, they are misleading. Also people keep forgetting to mention this little roll that gunslingers have that gives them great mobility and can resist many things in the game and this ability called diversion that can be used for all kinds of things in raids. I'm still of the opinion that snipers have the best overall utility.