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dps meter


Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
01.12.2012 , 11:55 AM | #21
I agree with you about the UI mods. I agree to disagree about the dps meters. I do, however, believe that environment can affect community and, accordingly, dps meters would have a detrimental effect on the experience of the game for many people. They always have.

That said, my disagreement will ultimately be irrelevant. They are coming. It's just a matter of time.

RiskyBiz's Avatar


RiskyBiz
01.12.2012 , 12:05 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
DPS meters have ruined every game they have appeared in. First, they encourage people to ignore proper fight mechanics to pad numbers. So many fights have mechanics that reduce overall dps that are completely ignored by players who want to pad their DPS Meter numbers. These people universally point to their DPS numbers to justify their performance when I would much prefer that they switch targets and/or do the right thing.

Second, dps numbers do not reflect raid performance; they reflect player gear. A player who maximizes performance in lesser gear will often have less dps than a player who is average in superior gear. That is a truism in MMOs that many players simply ignore.

In PVE, you are doing well, when your team downs the content. Period.

If you really want to know how you do in comparison to others, then play PvP. That's the only meaningful way to find out how you stack up against someone else. Even then, gear plays a huge part, but a lesser geared player who is very good, will often beat a geared player who is clueless (at least more often than occurs in PVE).
I disagree. I think bad guilds and bad groups used DPS meters inappropriately-- looking at them as "Person 1 did x DPS, Person 2 did y DPS, therefore person 1 is better." If you want an addon that ruined games, talk to Gearscore.

Addons like Recount let you see not only how much damage was done, but how many interrupts were performed, how many CC's (and broken CC's), and other useful stats that could really give you a good idea of who needs improvement. For newer players, it was also useful to see where improvements can be made. If a similarly geared character of the same level and class is doing significantly more DPS than you, you might want to ask that person a few questions and see what you're doing wrong.

Recount was also extremely useful for healers, to see how much overhealing they were doing and particularly which spells were overhealing. I used this to develop new healing strategies when Cataclysm hit (and mana conservation actually mattered).

One last thing: If you have one DPS in your group that is doing virtually no damage (or 99% of their damage is autoattack), then yeah-- he needs to be talked to. MMO's are about downing content by working as a group, not 90% of the raid carrying the bad.
"Seaworth"
(Sawbones Healer)

The Westeros Legacy
[Malicious]

Thankyjack's Avatar


Thankyjack
01.12.2012 , 12:26 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by RiskyBiz View Post
I disagree. I think bad guilds and bad groups used DPS meters inappropriately-- looking at them as "Person 1 did x DPS, Person 2 did y DPS, therefore person 1 is better." If you want an addon that ruined games, talk to Gearscore.

Addons like Recount let you see not only how much damage was done, but how many interrupts were performed, how many CC's (and broken CC's), and other useful stats that could really give you a good idea of who needs improvement. For newer players, it was also useful to see where improvements can be made. If a similarly geared character of the same level and class is doing significantly more DPS than you, you might want to ask that person a few questions and see what you're doing wrong.

Recount was also extremely useful for healers, to see how much overhealing they were doing and particularly which spells were overhealing. I used this to develop new healing strategies when Cataclysm hit (and mana conservation actually mattered).

One last thing: If you have one DPS in your group that is doing virtually no damage, then yeah-- he needs to be talked to. MMO's are about downing content by working as a group, not 90% of the raid carrying the bad.
You are all over the place with this post.

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.

dosyr's Avatar


dosyr
01.12.2012 , 12:33 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
When you see someone top meters, take a deeper look into the interrupts they missed or the extra healing they needed or the cc they broke. DPS meters make people lose focus on the real objective.
and i'm sure you checked the missed interrupts and over healing and broken CC in a....waitforit....damage meter!

RiskyBiz's Avatar


RiskyBiz
01.12.2012 , 12:37 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by dosyr View Post
and i'm sure you checked the missed interrupts and over healing and broken CC in a....waitforit....damage meter!
Recount says hi. And yes, I did-- every single raid.
"Seaworth"
(Sawbones Healer)

The Westeros Legacy
[Malicious]

KorusNarek's Avatar


KorusNarek
01.12.2012 , 12:40 PM | #26
Indeed,Gearscore is the one that ruined World of Warcraft.
Atm is called "Item Level" for example when 2 players 1 with 371 item level and the other 378 you pick the 378 obiously by reflex,and the lower player may be better player.
I don't mind Dps meters in the game, would be awesome to test the rotations/specs/etc.

RiskyBiz's Avatar


RiskyBiz
01.12.2012 , 12:49 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
You are all over the place with this post.

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.
You're 100% correct. I've only ever been in second tier raiding guilds, and we heavily looked into meters (we never used World of Logs like the best guilds did). We always ran with good players-- not excellent or "the best," but good players with some room for improvement. Our recruiting was very relaxed, so we'd take our new members through raids and take a look at the meter results to see if they're using interrupts when they're told to, if they're breaking CC, and so on and so forth. We NEVER used it to say "Well, the mage is beating the feral druid so it's time to kick the druid," BUT if 99% of the feral's damage is coming from an ability they're not even supposed to use in their rotation, it's safe to assume they need improvement.

I think it's fair to say that the upper tier raiding guilds comprise of a slim minority of players, so damage meters would be appreciated by the majority of players.
"Seaworth"
(Sawbones Healer)

The Westeros Legacy
[Malicious]

GengisKahn's Avatar


GengisKahn
01.12.2012 , 01:43 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Thankyjack View Post
You are all over the place with this post.

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.

Thats what guilds do in wow today... back in the time there were no upload of logs and meters were the way.

Anyway, the upload of logs is an improved way to look at the meter, and pages like world of logs are improved meters, improved ways to parse the log and measure everything that happened in the fight.

Live meters like recount are used to improve rotations and such by good players.

By using world of logs you ARE USING METERS, so no, they are not used only by pugs or second tier raiding guilds.

Bad players will always be there, but developing thinking in what bad players will do with your tool is the worst developement strategy i have ever heard of.

Again, dps meters existe SINCE VANILLA IN WOW. Worse, in vanilla they showed a lot less usefull information.

Dps meters dont destroy neither a game nor a community, and that's a FACT.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are wrong. I dont know for how long you played wow, but i can assure you dps meters had nothing to do with the community being complete idiots nowadays.

lrage's Avatar


lrage
01.12.2012 , 02:02 PM | #29
I have lots of MMO experience. From EQ-beta through pretty much everything till SWTOR. And of course WoW.

In WoW I was in everything from a server leading progression guild (which is very different then a world class progression guild). To a very casual guild that did light raiding, but spent most of my time in middle of the pack (Server Top15-20ish) progression guilds.

In those guilds my personal experience is the ones looking at logs, that parse their logs, that upload their logs, that discuss, are the good players, not the bad ones. In a typical progression guild there is a mix of really great players and average players with a few pretty bad players that typical aren't bought on progression encounters but rotated in once things go to farm status just ahead of alts. Content at different times was hard. T11 was much harder then most of WotLK. It just was. I don't think it was Ninja Gaiden for the 360 hard, but it was more a challenge.

Because of the increased challenge, people that had facerolled through content for the previous two years were hit with a slap of hurt. They thought they were just fine. But they weren't. A lot of the fights had just enough wiggle room to get through them with the items you were able to acquire before beating them. Logs allowed us to address the facerolling. Unless you're just in a horrible guild, oddities in an encounter are noted. My dps might drop one encounter if I'm on add duty. It also might be up because of that. Or if I'm required to kite around a nasty add. Whatever. But ignoring those specifics we were able to approach people and say, "look, your dps is very far behind the other dps in raid, and based on global parsings we know for your gear level and class/spec you should be doing more". And in some cases their DPS improved, in other cases it didn't and they were no longer bought along.

The world class guilds are a little different. Anyone that's just average isn't getting into their guild. They're able to be very picky about who they take. But for the rest of us, and that's the most of us, in challenging progression content logs/meters are almost required. Or the content can just be easy and no one cases, or zergable (EQ days were zerg fests in progression raiding for a lot of it). And I don't want easy or zergable content. I want hard content and parsings so we can improve since I don't plan to be in a world class guild full of nothing but the best of the best.

Zothlar's Avatar


Zothlar
01.12.2012 , 06:59 PM | #30
I will make this as simple as I possibly can. Some people enjoy playing the game competitively and want to optimize their performance in every way possible. Some people enjoy playing the game without searching for the best spec and the optimal rotation.

Including a dps meter allows the competitive people the use of a tool which enhances their particular enjoyment of the game with NO CONSEQUENCE to other players. And please, before anyone else types any more garbage about the "negative impact" dps meters have, or how they "ruin the community" think about this without emotion for a moment.

Nobody is seeking players out, inviting them to group to test their dps and then calling them bad. If you have been treated badly by someone "because of the dps meter" you have brought it on yourself in two ways. 1) you joined a group that was motivated by performance and 2) you failed to perform well. I really don't care how bad your spec, your rotation, or your play is until you join a raid with me and waste everyone else's time. It is extremely self-centered to believe that in a group situation you should be able to play however you want for your own fun even at the expense of everyone else. This sense of entitlement is what ruins communities, not dps meters.

Dps meters don't "force" you to spec or play any certain way. Choosing to join a group that cares about success is what forces players to choose optimal specs and rotations. The meter is nothing but a tool used by these players who are trying to optimize.
People spend a great deal of time and energy to learn how to get the most out of their characters. If you don't want to spend the same effort that is fine, it's not required. But you shouldn't join a group of people who do that for their fun. If you want to group with people you should either find a group of like-minded individuals or form your own raid where you get to establish the norms.

To sum up, the pro-meter people want a tool available for people that use it, and are fine with it being ignored by people who don't find that playstyle fun. To each his own.

The anti-meter people don't want the tool and therefore don't want it available to anyone. They apparently believe everyone should play their way.

Finally, yes some people will be jerks if we add a dps meter. They will be jerks if we don't add a meter. Because they are just jerks.
-Jim