Kaggath Tournament Finals - Ascending Empire vs Droid Supremacy

But they are getting there, and one day they probably will be smarter than us. Look it up. The Star Wars universe represents a civilization far more advanced than our own, then can build far more intelligent AI. Indeed a droid that can act like a human, have a personality and do things like run a criminal empire, be charismatic and outsmart his enemies is unthinkable today. You can't use the limits of todays technology to prove your point, only the possibilities.

And again, until you can provide an example of a droid of G0-T0's ability failing to defeat a human commander then it is a moot point, G0-T0 has never been tested in this arena, so we can't use it as argument.

I'd rather not, because I want people to agree with whatever decisions I make in the final scenario.

But I think at this point I've made my argument clear. At the very least I hope people will accept that G0-T0 can employ creative and unorthodox strategy i.e. suicide runs. I never asserted that he could actually beat Garm.

Nope all that has been said is that GO-TO can calculate outcomes thousands of times faster then any living being with out any limitations to his ability to concieve ideas. If that doesnt automatically make him the greatest strategist of all time I dont know what does.

In fictional work when speaking of fictional characters we usually use what are called "feats" to determine abilities or lack there of, of characters. The lack of showing some one doing something, like a Jedi never having shown the abilty to block Force Drain, or never having used Tutaminis, now some of these jedi were never force drained so we make the assumption that because they never did, they never could. Now by your statement of "absence of evidence" every jedi that has never been force drained should be capable of defending against it, after all we have an absence of evidence showing that they cant, and we know Drain is blockable.

Now there is a statement that there is no defense, but we know from other characters that have defended it that there is a defense. Yet jedi who have never been force drained are immidiately assumed to be unaware of and/or lacking this defense with complete absence of evidence to suggest one way or another.

These are feats. We determine a character is not likely to because it never has, but if we can determine something similar to said character can regularly then we assume the character can. For example force users often block baster bolts. There is nothing uncommon about that at all so we assume all can do it. Its rare for a Force user to block Force Drain so unless specifically stated other wise we assume they cant.

GO-TO same thing, he has never run a war before and it requires different kinds of tactics that he has not employed. We thus look at other droids specifically programmed for tactical warfare and see how they faired. In a majority of situations these droids fell short of their biological brethren, showing an incapability to handle unorthodox tactics or to think creatively on the spot, (like you said no plan survives contact) to survive against the tactical geniuses of their era. While a few have outmanuevered undertrained (or overtrained in some cases) individuals they have never out done a genuine tactical genious.


If you want an exersice in art with rules, write a 4 part Harmony and put in a few parallel 5th's take it to a music teacher and have him "grade" it dont be surprised if its filled with all kinds of marks telling you its wrong. While not all art has rules, there is rules to writing a symphony. Things you can do and things you cant, dont for an instant think that they limit the creativity you can have. The rules and the exceptions to them are vast allowing for a near infinite.... if not infinite number of possibilites. Especially when you right something that lasts 7 minutes. A computer could never hope to write a symphony even if it knew all the rules.....a person can.

They have been saying that for the last 20 years. Its still not there. To be greater then the human brain we must first understand the human brain.

"If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't." - Ian Stewart.

Yet as I have stated many times the intelligence of these droids is dwarfed in comparison to G0-T0, a pratical super-computer. And yet several of these droids have beaten humans on a strategic stage, and have thought creatively on the spot. As I have already said on many occasions processing various variables and outcomes to produce the most effective strategy is thinking creatively. Its what humans do every day and it's what wins wars.

If a droid can't think creatively, it can't employ strategy at all. Because you can't preprogram strategy without knowing the battlefield and the nature of your enemies. When in the field a droid will process this information and act accordingly. They formulate their own 'unique' strategies to counter the situation. That's called thinking creatively.

Not that Aayla Secura is a skilled tactician, and a Jedi, she is not lacking in ability. Heck even Obi-Wan Kenobi was outsmarted by a T-Series droid during the Battle of Ryloth and almost got killed because of it. If a basic tactical droid can in some instances outsmart a skilled tactician, I'd say one of the most advanced tactical droids out there can at the very least go toe-to-toe with Garm, Koon and Kenobi. At the very least he can employ creative strategy.

Which is why computers can't make art, but they can compose music. Look it up. But of course their remains something aesthetic about music that a computer can't understand, which limits it immensely.

I see nothing about war that a droid cannot understand. Its neither illogical nor aesthetic.

EDIT: I also take issue with your reducing my argument to a single point, and circumvent many of my other arguments simply my ignoring and sticking to assertions I've already challenged and you've failed to refute.

This debate is beginning to break down into nit-picking.

I never said that it could be greater that a human brain but you've had to understand that in the human brain their is a lot of untapped potential. In such a way a computer can perform better and will perform better in certain fields.

Like chess.

But of course in Star Wars droids are so much more advanced and in many instances are smarter than other humans. The fact they can create their own personalities and rebel against their programming is evidence of their intellect.

G0-T0 is certainly vastly more intelligent that most beings in the galaxy, which he manipulates on a daily basis.

proof of him dwarfing them? they are both super computers designed with different programming. GO-TO didnt break his programming the droid had 2 primary objectives that conflicted with one another. As such to do one it would have to ignore the other, thus it made the most logical choice about which to ignore.

Neither of us will ever convince the other, you have your mind made up, I have mine. We BOTH have a lack of evidence in this regard and we both have a belief neither of us will ever let go of. Like I said best way is just to put your foot down on it and let us argue other points.


Edit: I dont have a darn clue what your edit is talking about at all. I have countered every point that I have caught that had a point to be countered. You may have not believed any of them, but I have countered them.

I'm talking about this:

Droids are not capable of creativity: first the word creativity is an empty phrase, its merely another word for the unorthodox, and I've already demonstrated how a droid is capable of unorthodox thought. G0-T0 and strategy droids can formulate "original" strategies just fine. They combine variables to fashion the most logical course of action, this may be a simple move, or it may be something far more complex and intricate. But as long as these "creative tactics" are firmly based in logic, a droid is not incapable of performing them, not incapable at all. And in turn can be predicted.

Again you cannot create something out of nothing, in all original strategies will be a series of actions that said command has not simply 'invented' - actions that exist and are possible within the parameters of reality. G0-T0 took his original programming and attempted to achieve his goal in a completely different way than intended, he decided to take control of a criminal empire and use that to assist the Republic, breaking free of the various parameters and rules that Republic had set out before him to pursue the most logical and effective action.

Really I can't state this enough, when it comes down to matters of logic a computer is no less capable of being creative than a human. Its merely a question of intelligence. Don't creative invisible barriers without backing them up with logical explanation - and I don't mean examples of dumb droids - I mean actual logical reasons.

Among other points, such as the three over paragraphs in the post above. In one of those paragraphs I reiterated that point, after seeing your assert that droids cannot think creatively again, despite failing to refute the evidence to the contrary. If you don't want to have this debate then fine, but if your going to counter my points counter all of them.

Anyway I really don't think that a T-series tactical droid comes close to G0-T0. These droids were given control over small armies, G0-T0 was given control of entire sectors and managed one of the largest criminal underworlds in the galaxy. He's also demonstrated grossly superior creative ability both in managing this situations and staging traps for the Jedi Exile, manipulating Visquis etc. etc. whereas T-series have made a lot of dumb mistakes.

He also demonstrates an acute understanding of human psychology, whereas T-Series demonstrate a complete lack of. This is in itself extremely impressive considering both how unique it is and how complex the human mind is.

Creativity and unorthodox are not the same thing, and you have yet to show a single example of a droid preforming unorthodox or creative thought. You have said its logical that is all, that is not proof of a droid being capable of doing it.

What you create isnt always out of known strategies, some times its just life experience or knowledge of art or the way a particular animal moves. There is some times no rhyme or reason to what is created beyond a persons own life experiences that no one can understand save that person and least of all a droid.

Everything GO-TO did was within the boundries of his programming and primary objective. He was programmed with all the skills neccisary to preform that function that does not mean he can be an effective battle feild tactitian and it is very different then leading troops regardless of scale. One does not equal the other. Like I said its like saying Mothma is a skilled at fleet maneuvers because she planned a few of the basic stuff or the big picture stuff or ran an entire Rebellion or New Republic. She and GO-TO have a similar level of experience, they are the big picture people not the heat of the moment maneuvers people.


Like I said I already countered all your points. You claim you have given proof to contradict the idea that droids can think creatively, yet you have not. Nothing you have shown requires true creative thinking.

Macro managing an Underworld is not the same as Micro Managing a battle field. He ran a business using knowledge of economics, and human Psychology, as well as knowledge of planetary goods. As I have stated already on multiple occassions this is much different then Micro Managing a battle. A criminal empire like any business runs fairly smooth except for a couple hick ups that GO-TO takes care of using his knowledge of Psychology and economics. A battle is hands on all the way through for thousands upon thousands of problems that all happen at the same time and must be addressed simultaneously, running a criminal empire is not the same as maneuvers in a battle. Its no wonder the T-series couldnt handle the Human Psychology side of things while GO-TO could. GO-TO never had to deal with as many problems in as short a period of time, thus he had more room for these other programs. I assert they are just as powerful, just programmed with 2 different capabilities. GO-TO is a planning droid programmed with psychology and a knack for fixing big picture problems. The T series is a tactical droid designed to handle ever changing battle feild conditions and respond accordingly with known battle field tactics and counter-tactics, move and counter move all simultaneously on multiple fronts of the battle. One is Macro manageing the other is Micro managing, 2 very different approaches and requiring different skills.


Edit: if i missed a point it was not intentional I just write as my train of thought goes. and in response to the stuff taht I catch. Dont be mad if I missed something in my ramblings, of never ending circle arguments that neither of us will ever "win"

Animal movements? Life experiences? This is pure conjecture unless you can provide some examples of this being useful in a battle situation. I've never seen any strategies employed that do not first and foremost rely on information concerning the strength and weaknesses of the opponent and their own capabilities. Not the gait of a Tauntaun.

Anyway as I said, you can't create something out of nothing. All strategies are based on the information at hand. No strategy is completely abstract from the battlefield. For example TX-20 during the Battle of Ryloth used the natives as a human shield, rounding them up and gathering them around the anti-aircraft cannons in an extremely intelligent and creative manuevre. Exploiting the resources he had available and the known weaknesses of the enemy. He did not turn to page 112 in his tactical manual where it reads, "use twi'leks to shield cannons." He made it up on the spot.

G0-T0 himself went above and beyond his programming and employed creative thought to fufil his primary objective. Nowhere in his programming did it say anything about how to take control of criminal organisation and manipulate/intimidate humans with fake holographic projectors. G0-T0 took the initiative and did that himself based on the resources he had at hand. If that is not creative thinking then I don't know what is.

Nor did it anywhere state how to hack into and control droids for his own end or provide him with a textbook strategy as to how to prevent the remote from reactivating the Mass Shadow Generator. Another unique move from G0-T0.

Essentially you are trying to claim that no droid has every done anything that was originally, that's a farcical claim. There are countless examples, heck I bring up what Warren did about R2-D2 spraying the B2 battle droids to slip them up, nowhere in his manual did it note that as a use of his oil slick, its certainly not designed as a weapon.

And yeah, he accidentally set them on fire. LOL.

And finally, G0-T0 managed events on both a mirco and macro scale. For example when he outmaneuvered Visquis' attempt to destroy him. When he had the Jedi Exile hunted down, when he manipulated members of the Ebon Hawk crew. He didn't just manage the Exchange's finances. He had to respond and adapt to the unpredictable.

EDIT: However on top of that, G0-T0 could just apply the strategic upgrades which likely improve one's ability to respond to battlefield events on a micro level, rather than supply strategies you can look up on Wookieepedia.

Furthermore, just because G0-T0 remained within the bounds of his programming does not mean he was not creative. He was given a directive, save the Republic. How he went about that became completely up to him.