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Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

jjazt's Avatar


jjazt
03.03.2014 , 04:50 PM | #41
Dear Abby,
I understand I may be poking a hornets nest here, but I was hoping for some help. I am in a more laid back guild that works on progression a few nights a week. Currently we are working on the last few bosses of DF HM and DP HM. One of the issues we have been having is our healers telling me that one of our main tanks (long time in the guild and one of our better players) who stacks endurance (51K hps) takes too much damage and requires too much healing.

I understand that many of you can clear the current HM ops with either an endurance tank or a mitigation tank. It would help if we were optimized since many of us are casual players. Reading some of those formulas hurts my brain but my personal opinion from looking at numbers from our parses:

The extra 4480 hitpoints gained from using endurance augments is only good for an extreme burst phase. In that case time to kill (TTK) may apply since those extra hitpoints may outweigh any damage mitigated. Is it safe to assume that a burst phase (basically in the 40-50k range) that extreme is rare?

To me, any damage taken in the raid represents healing resources (GCD's) needed to fix that damage. Therefore, it is best to avoid as much damage as possible as opposed to "absorbing" it with a hitpoint cushion that consumes raid resources to fix. Our healers are usually fighting against the GCD clock to heal up the raid from adds / DoT's. I may be able to leave the endurance tank for 1 extra GCD (he absorbed with extra hps) while raid healing but when I come back, it's going to cost me an extra GCD (and energy/force) to heal him back up anyway right? Wouldn't it be better if he just took less damage in the first place?

Thanks in advance for any helpful and positive responses
- Hopeless in Noobville

Ottoattack's Avatar


Ottoattack
03.04.2014 , 10:41 AM | #42
A question regarding shelter for assassin/shadow tanks. Is the shelter taken in considerations into assassin/shadow survivability, individually, or not considering it is a buff for healers, but not tanks?

While this makes no difference in ops, if you have one assassin/shadow tank. It makes a huge difference in arenas where you only have one tank, thus becomes +5% survivability to all group members.

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
03.04.2014 , 12:18 PM | #43
its difficult to weight mitigation against endurance. if i was getting three shot by a boss, i might consider using B mods and ask my healers if they prefer my b mod build. using augments or enhancements is a bad trade compared to b mods (1:1 versus 2:1).

the 5% healing buff is troublesome to account for, much like oil slick, in that both tanks would benifit from it. i understand for arenas this is not a problem, but arguments could be made that the other teams would kite the other group out of the salvation/shelter etc.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
03.04.2014 , 12:54 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Rewatch Ryz's NiM Cartel Warlords farm video (it wasn't your first kill). Energy was the gating factor on your healers for the entire fight, especially for your operative. Ultimately, there were two separate deaths from Stabbing Spree which could have been avoided if the healers had any energy at all when they hit that phase. I don't doubt that energy is a non-issue now, given that everyone is over-geared for the old NiMs and the new HMs are very easy.

The argument about having extra time is valid, but remember that you lose time by sacrificing mitigation to pick up TTK, since you're taking more damage. See dipstik's calculations on exactly this point. You're gaining time only in the short term; you lose that race very quickly (not quite at the 2 minute mark). Thus, TTK is only interesting for spike phases, which is precisely why I made the point about Driving Thrust.
That kill was our first after they reworked it so you couldn't cleave-double-kill cheese the fight, so you can't really use that phase as an example, I think it was the second or third pull after change. The deaths were also not energy related, and since in that phase whoever he happens to start stabbing essentially becomes the tank it provides a poor sample as far as mitigation vs HP/triage. The first phase is a better gauge of how tank HP/mit correlates to raid triage. FYI Ryz plays an incredibly non-standard form of Sorc healing, he is probably the best Sage/Sorc heals on the server but none of us know how he makes it work. He will sometimes call OOE with 75% force remaining, and say he is fine at sub-10%.

Overall in NiM fights, the raid ends up taking more critical/spikey pull-ending damage than the tanks. Sometimes this is l2p, madcuzbad, standing in red (Thrasher), others it is unpredictable RNG based LOLWIPE raid spike (Thrasher, lolz). The NiM raid damage is rarely a static X value, compare Thrash's release sniper burst on 72/75 minmax to HM Draxus raid damage for current context as that's the fight where damage was going bonkers without any rhyme or reason. The tanks almost never went down and it was multiple DPS dying to spike in the same pull causing enrage. It had nothing to do with whether or not the heals had energy to spare, it was a matter of if they had the GCD's to triage. Our tanks haven't had a death during progression related to straight lack of heals since pre-nerf NiM DG. Part of that is probably luck, part of it may be that they swapped to HP stacking at the same time. Correlation data can't 100% prove or disprove this unfortunately. Keiki has been healing with me for almost 2 years, Ryz for well over a year. They say they don't notice a difference in healing the tanks, but there are significantly less deaths to tanks. Again not because of resource issues one way or the other, but because they have more GCD's to toss green.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

Xtremophile's Avatar


Xtremophile
05.29.2014 , 03:06 AM | #45
This is by far the best topic for a newb tank specialist for a subscribe and rated 5 immediately. Thanks, KeyboardNinja and everyone who contribute.

For the mitigation vs. endurance debate. I was the tank that stack HP in every other game before I knew better but everytime I did that, healers had a resource problem which lead us into wipes many times. Only then I tried for the reverse and both in PVE and PVP we got rid off that problem and focused on other things. So, Im telling you this in experience not by numbers and im fairly new to this but same thing applies to SWTOR as well. So, my vote is for KeyboardNinja's by experience.

* * *

Could you help a newb tank specialist to understand some specific things. I still have too much to test and learn.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Internal/Elemental damage bypasses shields and armor, but is subject to internal resist

For the record, neither "resist" nor "internal resist" come from gear in any way (aside from set bonuses).
1) I guess internal resist isn't in the character sheet, so how can we check this?
2) Which sets gives bonus to internal resist or any resist at all? You mean the ones for Blade Barrier?
3) I want to test that sets for the reduction of internal damage (also after that, with elemental dmg) and how do you suggest for me to do these tests? As I said I'm fairly new to advanced tanking.

Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Sidebar: It is possible for Guardians/Juggernauts to increase their self-healing by stacking power or strength.
So, would you suggest taking 6% strength over 2 points of Accuracy for a Guardian who wants to increase his survivability without losing dps/threat in Defense Tree? Considering I'm mostly PvP Tank.

More questions, yet to come as I read again and again. And thanks in advance.
Good or profane, odd or even
All is face to face
Light and Dark Sides, serve each other
Life is called this place

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2014 , 01:04 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Xtremophile View Post
1) I guess internal resist isn't in the character sheet, so how can we check this?
Hover your mouse over the "Damage Reduction" category in the character sheet. You'll see it broken down into different categories, one of which is internal/elemental.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xtremophile View Post
2) Which sets gives bonus to internal resist or any resist at all? You mean the ones for Blade Barrier?
Blade Barrier/Sonic Barrier is a heal, not really a form of damage reduction. It is most closely analogous to Force Armor/Static Barrier for sorc/sage healers.

The only set bonus which increases internal resist is the shadow/assassin tank 4pc set bonus, which increases it by 2%. Several talents also exist which increase internal resist, such as Jedi Resistance/Sith Defiance. Procs such as Shadow Protection/Dark Protection and Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow also increase internal resist as they in fact increase damage reduction vs all damage and attack types.

Quote: Originally Posted by Xtremophile View Post
3) I want to test that sets for the reduction of internal damage (also after that, with elemental dmg) and how do you suggest for me to do these tests? As I said I'm fairly new to advanced tanking.
The easiest way is to get someone who can buy the internal proc damage relic and the elemental proc damage relic. Have them hit you with their basic attack (white damage) and look at the yellow damage numbers. Note that one of them will crit more than the other due to the difference between force and tech crit. You can also take advantage of differences in abilities. For example, Shrap Bomb/Corrosive Grenade does internal damage, while Incendiary Grenade/Plasma Probe does elemental damage.

[QUOTE=Xtremophile;7452281]So, would you suggest taking 6% strength over 2 points of Accuracy for a Guardian who wants to increase his survivability without losing dps/threat in Defense Tree? Considering I'm mostly PvP Tank.

If you're doing PvP, then accuracy is largely worthless. Take the strength talent.

In PvE, I think the accuracy talent is worthwhile if only for the opener. Outside of the opener, the strength talent is superior.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Kuciwalker's Avatar


Kuciwalker
05.29.2014 , 02:17 PM | #47
You could use an accuracy adrenal for opener. I've played around with using a surge adrenal for my VG's opener (to coincide with Battle Focus and Shoulder Cannon), which boosts my crit multiplier to around 75%.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.29.2014 , 04:42 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Kuciwalker View Post
You could use an accuracy adrenal for opener. I've played around with using a surge adrenal for my VG's opener (to coincide with Battle Focus and Shoulder Cannon), which boosts my crit multiplier to around 75%.
That…is actually a really really good idea. The accuracy adrenal that is.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Xtremophile's Avatar


Xtremophile
05.29.2014 , 11:00 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
That…is actually a really really good idea. The accuracy adrenal that is.
Yeah! Never thought of accuracy one, in all the other adrenals. My alt is biochem, so it'll be easy to obtain. Thanks.
Good or profane, odd or even
All is face to face
Light and Dark Sides, serve each other
Life is called this place