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Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

vVvCheese's Avatar


vVvCheese
02.26.2014 , 05:39 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Lacedemon View Post
Care to show some of the videos because this is the first I am hearing of this and I know for our World Firsts neither of us in DiLiH stacked HP. I also know that Suckafish and Reckoning don't HP stack.
Hatred doesn't. Severity doesn't. We (DnT) don't. Provectus doesn't.

I actually can only think of a couple of tanks that HP stack, and their healers usually hate them.
Tenebras/Simulara
I've cleared all the content, probably before you.
Now I just PvP, and probably farm you.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.26.2014 , 06:32 AM | #22
Every tank who stacks purely hp is laughed at ( and hated by the healers). However it is legal to have b-mods instead ot the unlettered. Those give you more hp but this way is not considered stacking hp but creating a mix between max mitgation and maxhp. Whoever goes for hp stacking uses not only b-mods but also enhancements that give more hp loosing defstats significantly. Furthermore some of them consider hp augments, which is totally nuts, because your defstats willl be so low that even a dps could tank the boss. So what some progress guilds do for new content is that their tanks get some b-mods and replace them with their mitgation-mods. Having more hp does not make dtps lower or give the healer more time but it can help when mechanics of a fight are not known yet. Healers normally have to anticipate spike dmg, with more tank hp they dont have to anticipate but to react ( 1-2 seconds).

For example raptus : Every healer should know that Raptus has 2 big attacks after the second challenge. 1 is his force execution which can deal a good amount of damage if not avoided ( saber reflect, force shroud). Now if that mechanic would be new tanks woulldnt know that the foce execution hits hard and that this would be a good time to pop a cd. Therefore they are hit by the attack (10-15k). Same with the healers. They see the red circle and know to hot and shiield the tank. But if it was a new mechanic they could only react. Therefore they see the tank after force execution on 70% and heal. Problem now is that 1-2 seconds after Force execution he will do his Driving thrust, hitting for 20-26k. If Healers didnt react quickly or have casttimes tank might be killed by driving thrust, implying that healers dont hot the tank after force execution. But honestly : Tank suddenly on 70%-->big heal-->cast halfway through-->Tank dies on driving thrust. Now hp mods could've saved the tank bc he hast 4-5 k more hp. Driving thrust can be avoided, force execution can not be avoided by passive mitgation. Defstats do lower your dtps and theoretically give the healers more time to heal ( if you dodge 1 attack a hp tank would not, the healers have 1 swingtimer more to heal you). More hp give your healers the chance to understand the fight and allow them to be reactive healers instead of anticipating healers. Basically it doesnt punish your healers when they miss to anticipate a burstdmgphase on the tank. However if your totally hp stacking the sustained healing needed would be too high so that healers wouldnt have enough ressources to heal the burstphases. Besides it is better to have a defstat tank than having a hp tank that didnt balance hp and defstats perfectly. Currently no formula exist that would tell a tank where the perfect balance between hp and def is, but there are formulas which defstats should be focused with what priority. Therefore defstacking is a secure way to equip, while hp tanks dont have formulas - meaning they have to test / ask healers for feedback and so on.

At current nm progress i would say that hp stacking is a bad idea at most bosses. Dash'roode doesnt have burst on the tanks, therefore you can ignore him. Titan 6 doesnt have much burst neither except maybe the grenade and the hit when the tank is in the ground. Trasher however could be a boss where hp is more usefull. First you have those red circles on the ground. Of course every tank has to run out of it, but if it was a new mechnic a tank might still be hit by hit. Secondly his roar he does is less effective on a hp tank. The reason why you shouldnt hp stacking here are the adds ( unless you are a juggernaut and have saber reflect + saber ward rd y at all addphases). Otherwise the tps are too hard to heal for 1 healer especially in the 50% phase. The warlords require 2 tanks that do have 2 totally different duties. Tank A hast to tank Tu'chuk. There is no reason not to stack defstats here, as the dps Tank A would get would increase even more ( 3k dtps+) even if you kite him while you have got the armor debuff. Besides the armor debuff can be avoided by passive mitgation and active, but only dodges/parries work. The other tank ( kiting sunder) can have more hp as the only dmg he should get would be the knife of vilus garr. As his attacks arent avoidable ( not confirmed) hp stacking would be easier to be healed. Styrak has a burstphase here and there but nothing that could one hit you when your defstacking. I wouldnt prefer hp for this fight, bc i think the group healing needed + stunning adds + interrupting requires concentration and focus. The lower the tanks dtps the more healers can focus on other things ( like positioning for the 2.add whie in phase 1 ).

Def will always be better as it lowers the hps you need in order to survive, while more hp only gives the healers a second more to react on but only if the deftank does not avoid the next attack.

P.S. I am not trying to tell you how to equip your tank, play it the way you want. Neither me nor Kbn nor anyone here tries to do that. The only one who tries to tell others how to equip a tank is you, by attacking ppl personally and publishing wild theories who are not confirmed. 1 visit on your guilds page and i instantly knew why you are acting the way you do.
Revanchist

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
02.26.2014 , 10:54 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by vVvCheese View Post
So you're making a baseless claim on videos that may or may not exist and your own decisions. Mmkay.
Baseless? We've tested it, we've used it, several guilds on our server who compete with us use it. The videos are out there, if you care that much you can find them. I'm not your lackey, do the work yourself. This isn't English Comp 2, citations aren't required. I don't remember which guilds nor do I really care, we didn't come up with the idea to HP stack PT's and Sins on our own because everyone in the guild disagreed with me on my Sin gearing prior to NiM TFB.

KBN puts out math, and in the end it's just that, math. Reference his swtorboard.org Sin/Shadow guide, which had an improper initial spike threat rotation, as well as several other critical play mistakes. Someone else put up a hilarious comment in the responses, tactless as it was the stuff had merit and was kind of funny. I have a hard time taking gearing advice from a guy who is posting incorrect class guides.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
02.26.2014 , 11:20 AM | #24
lets say you start with 42k health for min maxed. you sacrifice 500 mitigation for 1000 endurance, so now you are a 52k tank. youre squish in mitigation was 0.41, you lose around 2.5*10^-5 squish per point of mitigation, so now you are at 0.4225 (0.41+500*2.5*10^-5). your old TTK for a 6k dps boss was 42000/(6000*0.41)=17.07 seconds with a required healing of 2460 hps. your new TTK is 52000/(6000*0.4225)=20.51 seconds with a required healing of 2535 hps. after 10000/(2535-2460)=133 seconds the health you gained my sacrificing hp has been lost doe to inefficient healing.

tl/dr: dont feed him/her

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.26.2014 , 11:33 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
KBN puts out math, and in the end it's just that, math. Reference his swtorboard.org Sin/Shadow guide, which had an improper initial spike threat rotation, as well as several other critical play mistakes. Someone else put up a hilarious comment in the responses, tactless as it was the stuff had merit and was kind of funny. I have a hard time taking gearing advice from a guy who is posting incorrect class guides.
Actually, the comment you reference was sort of hilarious because the "mistake" it pointed out results in higher spike threat, not lower. There are various reasons for using slightly different openers from the one I list in the guide, particularly if you use Tenebras's triple Recklessness trick, but using the triple Recklessness trick without losing Dark Protection still requires the first half of the opener that I recommended (which was the part that the commenter objected to).

Also, the comment had a number of other broken assertions, all posted under the pseudonym "KBN is Bad". I'm not sure why you would reference it as a credible counter to information that I have put up.

At this point, you're really just trolling. You made a claim about what the "top 10 guilds" do with their tanks, and the tanks from the guilds that most everyone considers to be the foremost in the world popped by and noted that they (and others) do the exact opposite of what you claim. You've ignored my TTK math (twice), as well as all of the other work that has been done on the tanking forums on that subject. Ok, fine. You have a right to your own opinion. Just don't paint yourself as a pure and authoritative source of information, particularly when your way of putting yourself in that light always seems predicated on discrediting those who disagree with you.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
02.26.2014 , 11:55 AM | #26
KBN and Thok tell people to learn to play because they are bad, nobody bats an eye. Someone comes and says KBN makes mistakes and needs to learn to play, everyone loses their minds .

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Baseless? We've tested it, we've used it, several guilds on our server who compete with us use it. The videos are out there, if you care that much you can find them. I'm not your lackey, do the work yourself. This isn't English Comp 2, citations aren't required. I don't remember which guilds nor do I really care, we didn't come up with the idea to HP stack PT's and Sins on our own because everyone in the guild disagreed with me on my Sin gearing prior to NiM TFB.

KBN puts out math, and in the end it's just that, math. Reference his swtorboard.org Sin/Shadow guide, which had an improper initial spike threat rotation, as well as several other critical play mistakes. Someone else put up a hilarious comment in the responses, tactless as it was the stuff had merit and was kind of funny. I have a hard time taking gearing advice from a guy who is posting incorrect class guides.

Good to see some variety in opinions, if it works for you guys and other guilds, you should not be slapped on the wrist like many who disagree. Math has always stayed math and assumed perfect gameplay. When perfect gameplay was pointed out, from the player manning the shadow, other excuses were found of the sort : your healers are bad they need to learn to play.


For 16M NiM certain guilds, like NGE, do not gear up according to KBN's numbers and it works for them. They have Hateful Entity on farm on a weekly basis and they had quite a few achievements up there with the best 16M NiM guilds. I myself will customize my shadow for 16M NiM differently than what KBN is suggesting. Granted for 8 MAN I am using his math but 16 is another cup of tea. I wont be doing 16M NiM Raptus with 43k+ HP .

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.26.2014 , 12:04 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
For 16M NiM certain guilds, like NGE, do not gear up according to KBN's numbers and it works for them. They have Hateful Entity on farm on a weekly basis and they had quite a few achievements up there with the best 16M NiM guilds. I myself will customize my shadow for 16M NiM differently than what KBN is suggesting. Granted for 8 MAN I am using his math but 16 is another cup of tea.
If I were doing 16 man, I would most definitely be using B mods. No question about it. I would also have a different stat distribution, since the ones that are generated use boss pre-mit damage numbers from 8 man, not from 16 man. The ratios are slightly different.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
02.26.2014 , 12:22 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Leafy_Bug View Post
KBN and Thok tell people to learn to play because they are bad, nobody bats an eye. Someone comes and says KBN makes mistakes and needs to learn to play, everyone loses their minds .


Good to see some variety in opinions, if it works for you guys and other guilds, you should not be slapped on the wrist like many who disagree. Math has always stayed math and assumed perfect gameplay. When perfect gameplay was pointed out, from the player manning the shadow, other excuses were found of the sort : your healers are bad they need to learn to play.


For 16M NiM certain guilds, like NGE, do not gear up according to KBN's numbers and it works for them. They have Hateful Entity on farm on a weekly basis and they had quite a few achievements up there with the best 16M NiM guilds. I myself will customize my shadow for 16M NiM differently than what KBN is suggesting. Granted for 8 MAN I am using his math but 16 is another cup of tea. I wont be doing 16M NiM Raptus with 43k+ HP .
Lol'd at the meme. Our main tanks don't change the methods they gear with for fights, the defensive focus (Def/Abs) gearing shifts but they all are at somewhere between 47-51k and they do just fine in both 8/16, we've killed every boss in the game post NiM TFB with HP stacked tanks and it's never a tank going down from want of healing that wipes us. Pretty much no one competitive on our server goes mitigation actually (not saying much, TBH ). Math is just that, it's numbers. Without testing, they mean nothing. http://www.funny-memes.org/2014/02/i...i-believe.html

To Keyboardninja, in a half-assed attempt to keep this civil, have you ever actually run TTK tests against incoming damage? Not in raid, but as a straight factor of "How long does this gearing keep me alive against a player/mob doing a preset static attack rotation"? I know my guys have, and heavy HP kept the tank alive longer in every iteration run for every class, especially PT. Probably also why every PvP tank on our server runs high HP. Dunno how they do it on other servers but our Ranked scene is all Juggs and PT's with boatloads of health. One other note, The Math doesn't factor in hybrid builds, which we've tested to be worth taking a look at for some fights.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.26.2014 , 01:08 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
To Keyboardninja, in a half-assed attempt to keep this civil, have you ever actually run TTK tests against incoming damage? Not in raid, but as a straight factor of "How long does this gearing keep me alive against a player/mob doing a preset static attack rotation"? I know my guys have, and heavy HP kept the tank alive longer in every iteration run for every class, especially PT. Probably also why every PvP tank on our server runs high HP. Dunno how they do it on other servers but our Ranked scene is all Juggs and PT's with boatloads of health. One other note, The Math doesn't factor in hybrid builds, which we've tested to be worth taking a look at for some fights.
I'm all for civilů

I have run TTK tests. I've also done math on it. What you're talking about is generally known as "effective health", and it's simply the amount of damage required to drop you from 100% to 0% with no external healing and mean mitigation (I suspect you know this, but just clarifying for the record). It's fairly easy to compute as: HP / squish, where "squish" in this case must include the mitigation contribution from self-healing mechanics but not heals received bonuses. This hints at the fundamental problem with TTK as a tanking metric: it pretends you have no healer (ever) and optimizes for that case.

Brief reminder: if you test TTK in the open world, be sure to also get the pre-mit damage ratios for the boss you're testing on and remember that your results will be very specific to bosses with those damage ratios.

It is trivial to see from the expression for effective health and the way that the stat ratings interact that stacking endurance is by far the best way to increase your TTK. There isn't even a question about this. The problem is that you're optimizing for a fight scenario which does not exist! Dipstik's math from earlier is pretty clear on the implications. By endurance stacking, you can stretch your TTK from around 17 seconds to around 20. The problem is that a fight lasts longer than 20 seconds, which is why we need healers in the first place. The longer the fight lasts, the more that you want to optimize for external healing, rather than intrinsic durability. Dipstik calculated the crossover point as being 113 seconds. Even 8 man Nefra with four DPS pumping over 3.7k on the boss takes longer than that to die (and I've personally tested that particular situation). No other boss is even remotely close to that threshold.

Nevertheless, TTK is still one of the metrics that I peg as being something that is worth considering when theory crafting about tanks. Not in the OP, but in other posts I have made. Specifically: TTK, survivability and spikiness are what I generally look at. Because of the way that content, tanking mechanics and healing play off of each other in SWTOR, TTK is by far the least significant of these mechanisms. I mean, seriously, a 17 second TTK on a mitigation-stacked tank?! Unless your healers are AFK or dead, that's an unholy amount of time. Survivability and spikiness are major concerns. The former has to do with efficiency with respect to external healing, while the latter has to do with reaction time for external healing. Endurance is very, very important in reducing spikiness, and it is precisely why I would use B mods if I were tanking 16 man progression content.

Anyway, don't assume that I haven't tested this stuff. Just because I prefer to work in clean formal models doesn't mean that I haven't tested those models in the actual game. I have. Others have too, and there is a lot of really extensive research that weighs these various alternatives against each other.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

MGNMTTRN's Avatar


MGNMTTRN
02.26.2014 , 03:52 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by vVvCheese View Post
Hatred doesn't. Severity doesn't. We (DnT) don't. Provectus doesn't.

I actually can only think of a couple of tanks that HP stack, and their healers usually hate them.
I believe Thiol (of Hatred's A group/world first group) runs B mods. It would be nice to get a Hatred member to confirm this.

In the end, it's a role-playing game. If stacking endurance helps people to role-play as a big bad dude, then they're enjoying the game and no amount of math will correct them, because their enjoyment of the game and the development of their in-game persona derives from perception rather than truth.