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Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Understanding Tank Theory Crafting

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 01:33 PM | #11
Only Blade Barrier/Sonic Barrier and the passive AoE heal (Into the Fray for Vanguards) are counted. Shoulder Cannon, Enure/Endure Pain, Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber, Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload, Medpack (of which shadows/assassins get multiple), and Focused Defense/Enraged Defense are all considered cooldowns due to their long intervening period.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
02.25.2014 , 07:39 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Only Blade Barrier/Sonic Barrier and the passive AoE heal (Into the Fray for Vanguards) are counted. Shoulder Cannon, Enure/Endure Pain, Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber, Adrenaline Rush/Kolto Overload, Medpack (of which shadows/assassins get multiple), and Focused Defense/Enraged Defense are all considered cooldowns due to their long intervening period.
Spoiler

TL : DR - You need to weigh in Endurance stacking because of their 1:1 return ratio as well as the tanking abilities that function off of %HP, cooldown or not. You want to give advice on all 3 classes? Run the extra math to calculate TTK for each class.

Spoiler

TL : DR - 100% HP Stacking/Primarily HP stacking > 100% mitigation

Summary: Factor in HP stacking or at least put in a disclaimer that you don't factor it in or calculate the stat distro's effectiveness weighed against it, because there are more Top 10 tanks getting HP than there are mitigation tanks.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 08:17 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
There are attacks that don't miss, can't be mitigated and punches through anything but a % resist/DR cooldown. There are almost no attacks (I don't even think there are any) that hit for a percentage of the player's hit pool. Because of that, and the permanent 1:1 ratio of points invested to stats returned of Endurance, I will get as much of it as I can get and not cripple defensive stats that the class is built off of.
There is one attack in the current quad of serious operations which does not miss. One.

There is one other attack (that I know of) which has any accuracy boost at all, and it's only a 5-10% increase. And yes, I have evidence to back up that numeric range. Nearly all melee/ranged attacks have accuracy penalties (to the tune of >10%). This includes the highest damage melee attack in the game (16 man Nefra's Twin Attack).

The amount of internal/elemental damage (damage which cannot be shielded) is pitifully small in the current quad. By "pitifully small" I mean "less than 15% of overall damage". Absolutely none of the high-burst attacks at endgame cannot be shielded. Literally none. All of the internal/elemental damage comes in the form of slow DoTs (e.g. Fury of the Masters). I have combat logs which prove this as well.

The attacks which are serious at endgame tend to be force/tech, with a slightly smaller percentage being melee/range. And by "serious" I mean "serious burst". When all of the attacks which do appreciable burst damage in current content are mitigable, and nearly 86% of overall damage is mitigable, I think it's fair to say that prioritizing mitigation is a strongly supported position.

The highest-burst single hit in 8 man content today is a 29k hit: unmitigated (Driving Thrust). That's on a shadow/assassin, btw. It's closer to 24k on a vanguard/powertech. But let's take the 29k. 29000 HP is just shy of 68% of a fully buffed, fully stimmed mitigation stacked shadow/assassin tank. If your healers can't keep you above that line (even during progression) when the hit is coming at long and highly predictable intervals, then you have a much bigger problem than how your tanks are itemized. Mitigation stacking yields more than enough HP to sustain even the highest burst window in the game.

Will the damage be higher in nightmare mode? Absolutely. How much higher? Well, previous tiers of NiM content have very consistently buffed tank damage by a maximum of 15%. Some fights much lower than that. 15% buff on Driving Thrust gives an unmitigated hit of 33.4k, which is up to 78% of maximum health. Much scarier, but still well within safe margins if you have healers who are awake and a tank who can react appropriately when mitigation fails (which it will 40% of the time on that ability). Also remember that, by the time we get to Raptus (even at cutting-edge progression), mitigation stacking tanks will have almost 47k HP. That's back down to 71%.

In short, you're worried about something which does not exist in the game and will not exist in the next tier. You're taking tiny attacks which occur very infrequently and assuming they are huge and occur all the time. Your prioritization is entirely wrong, and you're coming to erroneous conclusions as a result.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
TL : DR - You need to weigh in Endurance stacking because of their 1:1 return ratio as well as the tanking abilities that function off of %HP, cooldown or not. You want to give advice on all 3 classes? Run the extra math to calculate TTK for each class.
I used to calculate TTK. Ultimately, it's a surprisingly poor metric for looking at the tanks. Not the least of the reasons for this being the fact that there is no standard definition of what constitutes a valid TTK from the perspective of balance. Do we ignore all RNG mitigation and consider min TTK? Do we consider average TTK? Do we look at swing timers and cooldown through hard-hitting attacks?

On top of that, TTK ignores a very, very important metric in SWTOR: efficiency as weighed against healer regeneration. Efficiency is a far more important tanking metric in SWTOR than in other games simply because healers actively manage their energy in an incremental fashion, and the most popular healers have very narrow windows in which to do this. This, together with the low-burst nature of almost every boss ability in the game, shifts the focus from "surviving the worst-case burst" to "surviving the long-haul race against mana". And I've seen your farm videos, BTW, don't pretend that having more efficient tanks wouldn't have helped your healers tremendously in several fights. I can cite examples if you would like.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
The most important thing a tank can contribute as far as survivability to a raid goes is increasing their own TTK, providing healers with enough GCD's to get raid heals off since almost every fight in NiM is guaranteed to be a raid heal check. Going 100% mitigation is a horrible mistake, as 2% more defense won't save me from the cumulative damage incurred from the other 98% of those attacks that are going to hit me hard as hell. If the healers don't get the globals they need to use abilities it doesn't matter how good your mitigation is, you're going down. HP stacking does that 100% of the time, mitigation may or may not depending on if RNG is on your side.
How many more GCDs will the healers have to spend on you over the course of the fight if you're just playing mana sponge rather than actually mitigating more damage? How much more frequently will they have to stop what they're doing and heal you if your mitigation chances (joint probability of shield and defense) are lower? The answer to those questions is very, very revealing.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
TL : DR - 100% HP Stacking/Primarily HP stacking > 100% mitigation
You will find yourself very much in the minority on that opinion, but you are welcome to it.

Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Summary: Factor in HP stacking or at least put in a disclaimer that you don't factor it in or calculate the stat distro's effectiveness weighed against it, because there are more Top 10 tanks getting HP than there are mitigation tanks.
Citation seriously needed here. I've talked to a pretty solid percentage of the tanks getting world firsts (both in the NiM tier and the HM tier). Far, far more of them are mitigation-stacking than HP-stacking. A few (like Hatred's tanks) walk the line with mitigation enhancements and augments but B mods. You clearly have a list of all the world's top tanks though and how they are statted, since otherwise you wouldn't make such a bold claim (at least not without a disclaimer).

Also, what the heck is a "top 10 tank"?
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
02.25.2014 , 08:54 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
TL;DR

Also, what the heck is a "top 10 tank"?
Tanks in the top 10 World ranked guilds. I would have figured someone as good with math would know how to draw inferences, but I suppose not. I'm not here to have a discussion about which is better, HP stacking or Mitigation stacking as we've already done that. Go back and watch some of the progression vids. Lots of HP stacked tanks.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

vVvCheese's Avatar


vVvCheese
02.25.2014 , 09:07 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Tanks in the top 10 World ranked guilds. I would have figured someone as good with math would know how to draw inferences, but I suppose not. I'm not here to have a discussion about which is better, HP stacking or Mitigation stacking as we've already done that. Go back and watch some of the progression vids. Lots of HP stacked tanks.
Can you make a list of the guilds running HP tanks?
Tenebras/Simulara
I've cleared all the content, probably before you.
Now I just PvP, and probably farm you.

countpopeula's Avatar


countpopeula
02.25.2014 , 10:35 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by vVvCheese View Post
Can you make a list of the guilds running HP tanks?
Honestly? No, too busy running ranked to go scrounging around for them again, lazy too. Our main tanks started HP stacking either before or during NiM TFB after watching others' videos with high endurance tanks, can't remember when exactly. Ran a bunch of TTK tests, confirmed they lived longer with high HP mods/enhances. I always HP stacked on my Assassin tank when they had self heals, RIP.
Ranick
hmd MAGENTA

THoK-Zeus's Avatar


THoK-Zeus
02.26.2014 , 03:27 AM | #17
@countpopeula:
All top tanks (i know) run either full mitigation, or full mitigation with B mods (as mods give a > 1:1 Ratio for endurance : mitigation) for 8 man content.

For 16 man Content that's a bit different, mainly because raid healing is more then 80% of the required healing in 16 man content (while on 8 man Content it's about 50%/50%). If the heals you receive are a minority of the total heals, your own gearing doesn't matter much anyway.
In fact a lot of tanks used additional hp for 16 man content, because the bosses spike higher in 16 man content. They can do that, because the damage they take doesn't matter that much compared to 8 man.

Oh and:
There is no world ranking of guilds in this game.
If you call your guild a top 10 guild, because you were posting on a spreadsheet that you killed tfb nim 1 month after it was released and styrak nim over 2 months after it was released, feel free to do so, but don't expect that anyone takes that seriously (that's my opinion).
Zahik - DiLiH - The Red Eclipse

vVvCheese's Avatar


vVvCheese
02.26.2014 , 04:45 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Honestly? No, too busy running ranked to go scrounging around for them again, lazy too. Our main tanks started HP stacking either before or during NiM TFB after watching others' videos with high endurance tanks, can't remember when exactly. Ran a bunch of TTK tests, confirmed they lived longer with high HP mods/enhances. I always HP stacked on my Assassin tank when they had self heals, RIP.
So you're making a baseless claim on videos that may or may not exist and your own decisions. Mmkay.
Tenebras/Simulara
I've cleared all the content, probably before you.
Now I just PvP, and probably farm you.

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
02.26.2014 , 05:03 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by vVvCheese View Post
Can you make a list of the guilds running HP tanks?
Not Good Enough : 51k Guardian tanks for 16M NiM progression. Works well in conjunction with Shadow Tank armorings.

Lacedemon's Avatar


Lacedemon
02.26.2014 , 05:05 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by countpopeula View Post
Tanks in the top 10 World ranked guilds. I would have figured someone as good with math would know how to draw inferences, but I suppose not. I'm not here to have a discussion about which is better, HP stacking or Mitigation stacking as we've already done that. Go back and watch some of the progression vids. Lots of HP stacked tanks.
Care to show some of the videos because this is the first I am hearing of this and I know for our World Firsts neither of us in DiLiH stacked HP. I also know that Suckafish and Reckoning don't HP stack.
Lacedaemon - Juggernaut
The Red Eclipse EU - GM of Drop it like it's Hoth - http://dilih.eu/
World First TFB and S&V NiM Clear
RWZ Rating: Ranked died on my server