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Preferred 2.6 MT and OT

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Roles > Tanking
Preferred 2.6 MT and OT

Rebel_Guy's Avatar


Rebel_Guy
02.25.2014 , 04:40 PM | #21
Would like to put the notion that powertechs have poor snap threat to rest right here:

Powertechs most likely have the highest potential snap threat (given that there is ONE threat race, not many such as with last boss tfb and mini kephesses brontes) in other words with all cooldowns available (while assassin will have a large advantage in areas with multiple threat races due to good consistency)

now here are two logs from a powertech vs an assassin. Both of these are ideal logs in that there are no resists and a fair amount of crits (all ticks of the force lightning crit and the second shock was an energized shock) There are 11 global cooldowns used in each (so i'm ignoring the time). Here are the logs and i'm looking at the first trial from each log in this specific case.
http://www.torparse.com/a/591907
http://www.torparse.com/a/591926

I also had the armor debuff on the boss the operations dummy for both tanks...

The gear
Assassin- 2652 Mainstat, Power+force power =2237
Powertech- 2643 Mainstat, Power+tech power= 2235(mainstat BEFORE the points into increased aim)

I didn't use taunts (figured since both tanks have taunts they would cancel eachother out, and I didn't want to artificially boost one over the other by taunting later because I knew there would be some rng for the powertech rotation) (and this is not me saying either tank holds threat without taunts, just me removing a variable)

Final threat : assassin 66347 Powertech : 76857


that's on the one trial I'm looking at... I had done several trials and didn't want to go looking through the dozens of logs I did in the opener, but the average over three similar trials was Assassin- 66.3k threat
Powertech- 73k threat.

Typing this here so you don't have to look through if I did a poor rotation:
Assassin: (numbers are global cooldowns)
1.Force pull
2. Shock
3.Wither
4. Discharge
5. Thrash
6. Shock
7.Reckless force lightning
8. Still channeling lightning
9. Wither
10. Shock
11. Discharge

Powertech: (numbers are global cooldowns)
1. Rocket punch
2. Rail shot
3. Thermal sensor override +flame thrower
4. Still channeling flame thrower
5. Flame burst
6. Flame burst
7. Rocket punch
8. Flame thrower (flame engine proc- only 1 global cooldown this time)
9. Flame burst.
10. Flame burst.
11. Flame burst
(shoulder cannon and heat blast were used as available when not channeling flame thrower totaling 1 heat blast 4 hits of shoulder cannon)


point of post: not to say that it matters that one tank is higher than the other because assassins do hold threat regardless with using the two taunts, but please people stop saying that vanguards/pts have poor snap threat, because they don't (and on my server I hear some people say that using it as an excuse when they lost threat- which annoys me as well)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 04:51 PM | #22
You need to delay your Powertech opener by a GCD for Storm, otherwise it isn't a fair comparison. Very few bosses open instantly at melee range.

With that said, I agree with the premise. Due to the combination of Explosive Fuel and Shoulder Cannon, powertechs have amazingly good snap threat. I'm not sure if it's better or worse than an assassin, but it's darn close if nothing else. It is a little more RNG-dependent due to procs though, which is unfortunate, but ultimately even poor RNG will still leave plenty of space ahead of the DPS.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.25.2014 , 04:59 PM | #23
I never said pts had a poor snap threat, but compared to Jugger who can use saber reflect and Sins who use recklessnes ( your friendsin tank didnt use it therefore his snap threat was worse) pts are a little less good. Nevertheless the difference might be 1-2k tps the first 5 seconds, then pts win with their sustained tps as thats maybe the highest sustained tps tank class

Kbn in your previous post you wrote you did 3.9k tps. Your right dps dont get aggro with those tps values. But in the first 5 seconds dps do up to 9k dps which can give every tank problems. Therefore a tauntrotation should be done.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 05:09 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Kbn in your previous post you wrote you did 3.9k tps. Your right dps dont get aggro with those tps values. But in the first 5 seconds dps do up to 9k dps which can give every tank problems. Therefore a tauntrotation should be done.
Agreed. I do taunt fluff in my opener, and usually I'll lose threat for a split second between my single taunt and my AoE (during the last tick of my Telekinetic Throw). On some bosses like Titan VI, where the DPS can just squat and channel dummy-style, or TfB where the DPS are in melee range, I will follow up with a third taunt. Otherwise, I just rely on those first two taunts plus my rotation to hold threat.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Rebel_Guy's Avatar


Rebel_Guy
02.25.2014 , 05:21 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
I never said pts had a poor snap threat, but compared to Jugger who can use saber reflect and Sins who use recklessnes ( your friendsin tank didnt use it therefore his snap threat was worse) pts are a little less good. Nevertheless the difference might be 1-2k tps the first 5 seconds, then pts win with their sustained tps as thats maybe the highest sustained tps tank class

Kbn in your previous post you wrote you did 3.9k tps. Your right dps dont get aggro with those tps values. But in the first 5 seconds dps do up to 9k dps which can give every tank problems. Therefore a tauntrotation should be done.
I wasn't actually pointing into anybody in particular nor trying to start an argument so no worries there. But i'm not sure what you mean by I didn't use recklessness, because I did- and all four ticks crit.

Also note the underlined most likely, because I knew there may be some debate by how it's set up (though having to use jetcharge, or grapple for starting certain bosses (like tyrans on the throne) really only means that you use one less flame burst and lowers the total threat by replacing the flame burst threat by the less threat gapcloser/pull. (as a side note I noticed DFA/mortar volley does about the same as flame thrower without the armor debuff, and a little bit more with the armor debuff- so it is actually a decent replacement for an unprocced flamethrower if you get bad rng and flame engine procs right away[ though use with caution, since it's sometimes annoying to aim at a boss unless they have a large hitbox with the minimum range required to use it and if you're sitting there trying to aim it then it'll just defeat the purpose as you lose threat in that process -_-])

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 05:55 PM | #26
Just to satisfy my own curiosity, I did a bit of checking on the tanking trial using my own logs. Note that I was two implant shy of BiS when I got the data for this test (the implants I was using were Kell Dragon, so very close on main stat). I also changed the assassin opener to use Maul rather than Discharge in the final GCD, since it is statistically very probable that it will be up, and it does dramatically more threat.

Assuming exactly zero crits outside of Recklessness and no chain shock, I get 59808 total threat. However, assuming average crits and procs and accuracy: 66532 (70779 if I assume perfect accuracy). If I assume lucky crits and procs and accuracy: 93068.89

So in other words, it's really just Battle Focus/Explosive Fuel that is making the difference here. Crits go a long way toward increasing burst. If an assassin gets lucky on the order of what Battle Focus/Explosive Fuel allows, their snap threat is well north of 85k.

As Rebel pointed out though, without cooldowns, a Powertech really isn't going to be able to match what an Assassin can do. The only thing assassins lose is Recklessness in terms of cooldowns. All of the remainder of that threat is perfectly replicable on demand at any point in the fight. This also makes me strongly suspect that there is no way a Powertech will be able to match the sustained threat generation of an equally-geared Assassin (not that it matters, given taunt fluffing).

As a further side-note, I really miss the self-healing on Force Lightning when discussing these things. That was an additional guaranteed 3.5k threat, which actually puts the Assassin snap threat slightly ahead of the Powertech.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

vVvCheese's Avatar


vVvCheese
02.25.2014 , 06:15 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Rebel_Guy View Post
Would like to put the notion that powertechs have poor snap threat to rest right here:
*snip*
Assassin: (numbers are global cooldowns)
1.Force pull
2. Shock
3.Wither
4. Discharge
5. Thrash
6. Shock
7.Reckless force lightning
8. Still channeling lightning
9. Wither
10. Shock
11. Discharge
*snip more*
That's not the highest threat opener for an Assassin. Even without changing the order of the rotation (which you can by making global 7 a thrash, and global 10 shock if energize reprocs, 11, wither, 12 discharge), the recklessness should have been on the Shock on global 6, followed by the reckless FL clipped to apply recklessness to the wither as well. This makes you miss out on a lot of threat.

The reckless shock would have added an additional 2670 threat. The threat if wither crits because Recklessness is active would have added at least an additional 3000. Even with the subpar opener you'd be sitting at ~72000 threat.

72000 threat versus 76857 is pretty close, even if you're opening incorrectly. Not only that, as mentioned before, a PT cannot get into melee range immediately, so you'd obviously be one global behind on significant threat because you would have to Jet Charge in. That alone probably puts the PT behind the Assassin parse. You're also dumping your shoulder cannon in the first few seconds before you will have lost 5% of your HP, which is another 12k threat you would not actually have in a real fight. Using an older parse from the same PT, Jet charge is just under 3k threat. That's one less Flame Burst assuming the same rotation, so that's another 800-1000 threat gone.

That puts a realistic powertech threat scenario at 64k. Even poorly performed Assassin rotations out-threat that.
Tenebras
Pre 2.0 Warstalker, Pre 2.4 Dragonslayer/From Beyond
Conqueror of the Dread Fortress, Pre 2.8 Gate Crasher
Death and Taxes - Prophecy of the Five

Rebel_Guy's Avatar


Rebel_Guy
02.25.2014 , 06:48 PM | #28
Unless you are in the middle of a fight- it is very realistic to not have to jet charge in. The fight starts when you pull it- and while you may get weird looks from your group by walking/ usingjet boots up to the boss it would not be unrealistic except on tyrans/dread council. Opening with rocket punch is very realistic (and you can't compare an "ideal" trial counting on an energized proc would be an "ideal" trial possibly realistic, but definitely still in a best case scenario or "ideal", so you can't take threat away from the powertech parse for being too ideal and then compare it with an "ideal" assassin one... don't care which we are comparing realistic threat in that time vs highest possible in that same amount, so long as it's the same for both tanks) . For the healing threat- you either get it or you don't, but you don't worry about it. Use shoulder cannon for the extra threat in the beginning during explosive fuel. Delaying it to get more healing threat later after the threat race has been decided is not the way to go.

For the others I'd really have to see a parse to agree, because wither crit does not do 3k more threat, it does 1900 more
"Wither hits Operations Training Dummy for 1547 kinetic damage, causing 4642 threat."
"loses Recklessness.
Wither critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 2180* kinetic damage, causing 6541 threat!"

which leads me to thinking your numbers are skewed from where ever you are getting your numbers from. I also don't want to delay force lightning fishing for an energize shock if I did not get one, and I also don't want to chance losing my second reckless charge over a double shock that might happen..

vVvCheese's Avatar


vVvCheese
02.25.2014 , 07:10 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Rebel_Guy View Post
snip
If you want to throw in defensive cooldowns generating threat, Assassins grab a huge chunk of healing threat (~15% of their HP) from popping Overcharge, which also increases their Dark Charge proc chance and adds approximately 3k more healing over its course. Probably equates out over its length to a shoulder cannon, if not more.

3000 should have been 2000. Regardless of whether you're "counting" on procs, you used one in the sin parse you posted, and didn't apply recklessness to it. Feel free to knock my threat calculation down to 71000 for an Assassin in that case. A BiS Sin heals roughly for 9k over the course of an OS, with 6350 of that upfront. For even more threat, we can pop a resuable medpac upfront (which we get back when we vanish) which is ~5300 healing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but healing threat x Tank Stance = 1. So that's an 11k chunk of healing threat if we're popping defensive CDs upfront like the PT does in the parse.

Taking defensives out of both parses puts the 'Sin ahead. Including defensives in both...puts 'Sins ahead.

I'm not going to bother with the rotational argument (delaying FL increases your overall threat at the point you choose to stop tracking), because my point stands with or without it.
Tenebras
Pre 2.0 Warstalker, Pre 2.4 Dragonslayer/From Beyond
Conqueror of the Dread Fortress, Pre 2.8 Gate Crasher
Death and Taxes - Prophecy of the Five

Rebel_Guy's Avatar


Rebel_Guy
02.25.2014 , 07:37 PM | #30
Shoulder cannon is very necessary for the opener and not a huge deal to go without the heals even for the whole fight. Overcharge saber is the best defensive cooldown an assassin has (you could argue in the game, but that'd be a different discussion) In no way are the two the same.

The point of the post was to show the viability of a powertech opening on a boss. Not develop the thread into a pissing contest I underlined most likely the highest potential threat because it is a moot point- I compared it to an assassin because it has been proven time and time again that it is a very reliable class to hold aggro. If you are going to treat it like that then there'd likely be a "what if" statement for everything else like standing in a red pool on bestia so you could use kolto overload and a medback for threat. Regardless this is where i'll choose it end this discussion...