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Preferred 2.6 MT and OT

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Preferred 2.6 MT and OT

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.24.2014 , 11:15 AM | #11
1. agree

2. agree

3. Every tank can hold aggro the first 10-20 seconds when the big burst happens. Its called a tauntrotation. Tank A pulls the boss uses singel taunt ---> rotation. When the single taunt wears off he does his masstaunt ( if the bosstactic allows it) when the masstaunt of tank A wears off Tank B uses his single taunt -->rotation. After his single taunt wears off he uses masstaunt. Besides all classes can do 3k tps sustained even when they dont follow their rotation perfectly. All tanks can have burst tps for the first ten seconds of the fight ( Jugger = saber reflect, Sins = recklessness, only pts dont have that much burst tps burst their sustained tps is better). Basically no tanks needs time to build up enough threat. Besides in nim's you dont have time to waste. Dont let your dps use their detaunt the first time they get aggro but after the taunt of the tank also helps a lot.

But what i see often are flaws in the rotation. If a juggertank engages the target without using enrage before and uses sundering assault as first attack ( to build up rage, but low threat generation) it should be clear why he cant hold aggro. Therefore enrage-->single taunt-->St-->Force charge-->smash-->(ret)-->Crushing-->Ret-->Fs--->(ret)-->Backhand-->masstaunt--->Ravage--->(ret)-->Sa and so on. Gives you 6-7k burst tps 3k+ sustained. Bc there are dps who do 4k sustained they will get aggro thats why you use taunt to overtake their threat. Meleedps need 10% more threat to get aggro. So in the first 10 second you might have build 50k threat and a dps 40k. In 10 seconds youll have equal threat, if the dps is at 54.999k threat and tank is at 50k that would be the ideal time to taunt. Tank taunted and now has 54.999k and the dps also. So the threat doesnt change, but what changes is the amount of threat a dps has to generate. in that example the dps needed to do 55k threat to get aggro, but if the tank has 500k threat and the dps also the dps has to do 50k more threat in order to get aggro. Its still 10% but the absolute value is higher = The longer the bossfight the easier to maintain aggro for the tank. Ofc you can give the tank 1 -20 seconds in order to maintain aggro, but that only leads to the point that dps will get aggro 1-20 seconds later, if the tank does no tauntrotation. This only is accurate on single target fights. Most progress guilds let basically their dps pull the bosses with their big hits. Pre sniper nerf we counted from 10 to 0. At 6 snipers precasted their orb+adrenal+ambush ( pull here) + rotation. A tank asking for some time in order to maintain aggro is not playing his rotation perfectly.

Sorry i kinda wrote more than i wanted. But i dont like commands like "give the tank some time".
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.24.2014 , 11:25 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Sorry i kinda wrote more than i wanted. But i dont like commands like "give the tank some time".
Me too. When I hear "give the tank some time", I interpret it as "we have no confidence in the tank". Sometimes that's the tank's fault, and sometimes the raid leader is just ignorant. Either way, it's super-frustrating. When I tank, I want my DPS to blow everything and hard-core strain to pull off me. If they succeed, I want them to feel good about themselves, because it should be an accomplishment noteworthy for its rarity.

In my guild, we call it the "exciting agro game". Though, this is often the sub-variation of the game where the DPS in question is unguarded. :-)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Leafy_Bug's Avatar


Leafy_Bug
02.24.2014 , 12:22 PM | #13
Contrary to popular belief, holding aggro is as much art as parsing 3800 with your damage dealer class. Guardians and Vanguards who can hold aggro at all times have my utmost respect. This leads me back to my point about player-class synergy. A good player can hold aggro on all tanks but in my honest opinion, shadows have the easiest job at holding aggro provided you understand how the rotation, procs and fillers can help you out. An example, here a 16M HM run with Not Good Enough-Rebel Dream-Outbreak, I have no issues holding aggro with my shadow on Tyrans. Cryptica, 3800 DPS Ataru sentinel managed to tickle the boss, unguarded, but it was for less than 1s and as you can see, this happened at the same time my single taunt entered the rotation. Tyrans turned for such a short time, nobody even noticed, and nobody took damage. So again, choosing a main tank and offtank is not as easy as some make it.

OMGITSJAD's Avatar


OMGITSJAD
02.24.2014 , 07:12 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
Grob: PT main tanks definitely, dat hydraulic override. Sin offtanks with all those adds.
Corrupter. N/A no such thing and main and off, have to switch back and forth anyway.

Tyrans: I'd go out on a limb and say Juggys are the best main tanks, but again if you're switching back and forth it doesn't matter. Offtanks again doesn't matter.
Calph: No opinion, face roll boss on any tank.
Raptus: PT by a far margin thanks again to hydraulic override, passive mitigation and oil slick. I'd say this fight is pretty weak for assassins, so I'd say juggy as the offtank.
Don't discount Juggs for Grob, I MT him without hassle on my Jugg(and I usually only hit one or two pipe smashes too). I think any tank can do decently as the off-tank too, it just requires more skill and luck with Jugg to tank the adds.(this is subject to change if something like a speed decrease is given to the tank on Grob in NiM though :\ )

I would also say that Assassins are the best for Corrupter also because of their high shield/absorb for ranged mode and high defense for melee mode. Can also Discharge the melee adds to help DPS without having to move the boss awkwardly. Maybe PT/Sin best combo for this, with Oil Slick used on cooldown when adds spawn.

Sins must be the best tank for Tyrans because if they get inferno they can speed away and this fight is primarily force damage taken which can only be shielded.

I would say Jugg and PT are the best combo for Cal, Oil Slick and Saber Reflect & Ward against all defense is awesome. Assassins using Phase Walk for final phase is nice, but Intercede/leaps do the job well enough. Juggs are probably unmatched in the first two phases due to the armor debuff from Smash on adds/multiple crystals as well.

Raptus is the best fight for PT/Assassin because you are mostly sitting in one spot for most of the fight until you have to move over slightly for a little bit, making Oil Slick very viable. Assassins being able to Force Shroud and Juggs being able to reflect Force Execution is nice too.

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.25.2014 , 03:00 AM | #15
Shadows indeed generate more threat as juggers do. But do be honest if your dps are good none of the tanking classes can hold aggro without using taunt. Dps do 5-6k or more the very first ten seconds. No tank can generate that much threat. The only exception would be a jugger tank who uses saber reflect right after pull. But not all bosses are reflected. Thresher nm for example can be reflected resulting in 10k tps before the first adds spawn. Other bosses attacks are too slow or not reflected so that saber reflect has not this big impact.

All of the tanking classes can reach 1.4k dps ( for juggs its harder than for pts and assas) @ nefra. resulting into a 3k tps. Which means dps tps is always bigger than the tanks. Meaning you have to be ahead with your threat as a tank which only can be done with taunt, bc taunt sets your threat equal with the person who has the highers threat. After that the person who had the highest threat should use his/her detaunt. Basically :

Taunt --->(6 sec of rotation)-->Masstaunt ( dps should detaunt)-->rotation


On tyrans fight the beginning tank would use his 2 taunts. After that the other tank uses his single taunt and his masstaunt. When Simplification comes the beginning tank can use his single taunt to get the boss back..
Thats the way we do it, ofc you can alternate the tauntrotation.


I would never prefer an assasin over a jug for raptus. Still seeing bis sin tanks who get killed bc of force execution + the other big attack in 2 seconds. A jugger is @100% after force execution when he times his def cd's with each force execution. Giving the healers an easy time. A sin wihtout force shroud rdy will be at 60% after force execution and needs to be healed to atleast 80% for the big hit of raptus that comes 2 seconds after force execution.

Btw. Force damage can either be shielded or be dodged ( if it is energy/kinetic) or not be mitgated by defstats ( if it is elemtal/internal). But there is to my knowledge no attacktype that can only be shielded but not dodged. And yes tyrans can be dodged^^. Otherwise i would take more than 900dtps @ tyrans 8hm. But also my parsers proof that he can be dodged. The only thing that cant be dodged are his dot and his aoe. But this is just 36% of the damage tyrans does. The other 64% can be shielded and dodged. While the 36% can not be shielded nor dodged.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
02.25.2014 , 03:38 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
All tanks can have burst tps for the first ten seconds of the fight ( Jugger = saber reflect, Sins = recklessness, only pts dont have that much burst tps burst their sustained tps is better).
Oh PTs have an amazing opening threat, so long as they carry an attack adrenal

It goes:

1. Load shoulder cannon - if you are bored enough, abuse the respec trick to get a 5th missile loaded (respeccing to AP lets you load 7 missiles instantly, but using the first one sets it to 4) as well as 3 stacks of PFT to start the fight (you can do this if you are quick enough)
2. Activate Jet Charge
3. Activate Explosive Fuel (+25% crit chance) + Nano-Infused Attack Adrenal (+625 power)
4. If you did the trick for 3 stacks of PFT, use Flamethrower here
5. Spam shoulder cannon
6. Rocket Punch -> Flame Sweep -> Rail Shot -> Flame Sweep -> Flamethrower (@Flame Engine) -> Flame Burst + Heat Blast

You have now done Ludicrous threat, and no one should catch up unless you accidentally threat drop.

It does require a bit of shenanigans with respeccing for maximum value, though you can pull it off without said shenanigans.

Anyway, these are how i'd say each combo works in the HM dread ops right now, as well as highlighting the best one:

Brief summary of what they bring (any fight-specific abilities will be brought up later):

GUARDIAN
Provides Armor Debuff
Provides Accuracy Debuff
Guardianship for raid-wide shield temporarily

VANGUARD
Provides 5% damage Reduction
Provides 30% accuracy debuff with 28.3% uptime (17 second duration with set bonus, 60 second cooldown. No one gets this right)

SHADOW
Provides 5% Damage Reduction (non-hybrid)
Provides 5% Accuracy Reduction
Provides +5% heals output

NEFRA

Additional Notes: Shadows can cleanse themself of the DoT in this fight

Best Primary Tank: Vanguard for the 30% accuracy debuff that stacks with the other debuff
Best Secondary Tank: Hybrid Shadow due to self-cleanses. Vanguards should guard the shadow cause its gonna be dropping its threat a lot anyway, and the guard provides +5% DR.

DRAXUS

Additional notes:
GUARDIAN - Saber Reflect gets rid of Draxus's 'cull' attack (im calling it that cause it sounds like Cull on my sniper) and throws it back into him. He can also exploit the puzzle sequence beforehand allowing everyone to go left instead of forcing everyone to split up.
SHADOW - Has the ability to self-cleanse
Vanguard - Ranged AoE taunt, 30m Auto-attack.

Best Primary Tank: Guardians work best for tanking draxus because they can negate his strongest hit and instead hit him with it.
Best Secondary Tank: Vanguards due to a combination of its high mobility, ranged auto-attack and AoE taunt, 8-second interrupt and as always, Riot Gas

GROB'THOK
Additional Notes: Vanguards Hold the Line prevents bouncing from Pipe Smash and Grob'thoks mostly AoE attacks heal it

Best Primary Tank: Vanguards for their ease of negating most of the fights mechanics and their heals on AoE damage. And of course, Riot Gas.
Best Secondary Tank: Either should work well here, i'd be more inclined to take a shadow here though because of Shadows Shelter.

CORRUPTOR ZERO
Additional Notes: Force Pull can be used to help with add control more easily.

Best Primary Tank: Well this fight doesn't really have a 'primary' tank due to the mechanics, but i'd be inclined to say a shadow for it, due to its self-cleanse and force pull to help with adds management, as well as shadows shelter due to the heals-intensiveness of this fight. Vanguards technically provide the pulls as well, but thats available to DPS VGs so you dont need to specifically bring the VG tank for it..

Best Secondary Tank: Guardians, as they can AoE Taunt + Saber Reflect during the ranged adds phase to cause them to kill themselves instead of your healers - also their AoE taunt provides the shield that helps mitigate damage from the billions of adds.

BRONTES
Additional Notes:
Guardians can saber reflect and jump into the orbs to avoid all damage
Shadows can Resilience and jump into the orbs to avoid all damage. Can also self-cleanse corrupted nanites
Vanguards can use Hold the Line to prevent Knockback from the hands in their final phase, while also causing brontes to spend ages trying to throw you back in the final phase while it doesn't work.

SUGGESTED TANKS
Guardian/Shadow or Vanguard/Shadow are probably the best combos here. I'm inclined to say VG/Shadow because thats self-class bias, but what each class brings individually goes against what I want to be the truth.


DP COMING SOON-ISH

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.25.2014 , 03:51 AM | #17
Attack adrenals are hardly an option for a tank. I didnt say pts dont have any burst tps but they dont have that much burst tps. My jugger can do 11k tps the first 5 seconds, a sin can do 7-8k tps. Pt's have their 4k bursttps and 3k+ sustained.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

TACeMossie's Avatar


TACeMossie
02.25.2014 , 04:21 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
Attack adrenals are hardly an option for a tank. I didnt say pts dont have any burst tps but they dont have that much burst tps. My jugger can do 11k tps the first 5 seconds, a sin can do 7-8k tps. Pt's have their 4k bursttps and 3k+ sustained.
I actually got the idea off KBN cause I was having trouble holding threat against the TFB's first tentacle (and my AoE taunt would sometimes glitch up and get both of them) and he mentioned a guildy (who used a Guardian) would use an attack adrenal in the first phase to help hold threat.

The thing is, shoulder cannon has a 2.3 times threat multiplier, and combining the explosive fuel buff, the attack adrenal, and the self-heals tied in with shoulder cannon (5% per missile), you tend to get pretty obscene threat generation - while you do say its a 4k tps, the shoulder cannon alone will be giving 3k tps and its off the GCD. VGs are probably a little closer to 5k tps burst, and I have constantly pulled off other tanks just with my opener I linked before without even needing to taunt (also I typically dont do the fancy respec shenanigans mentioned in my previous post, though they are there if I ever start having threat issues).

EDIT - maths and a parse has shown that, in the burst opening, you'll be getting 4k tps from shoulder cannon alone (Gear that is half way between underworld and dread forged in optimisation)

Methoxa's Avatar


Methoxa
02.25.2014 , 04:51 AM | #19
You are pulling aggro bc the other tank has less threat than you, his bursttps in the beginning might still be higher but his sustained tps ( seen over the whole fight) might be lower therefore at some point youll get aggro. Besides you cant compare medicore tanks with yourself ( i guess you are a more advanced tank as you think about threat and can actually write usefull threads). I've seen juggernaut tanks who start with force charge + sundering assault. Thats totally wrong ( not enough tps, not enough defs and so on) because they dont read tooltips. If they would they would at least start with enrage + force charge + sundering assault. Then at some point they will realize that they have enough rage with enrage to do the bigger hits. So eventually they will move sundering assault in the last position of their rotation. Maybe they will even realize that sweeping slash does more threat per rage than vicious slash. Implementing all these things and some other who are not mentioned here will change their burst tps from 2k tps to 6k tps and their sustained from 2.4k tps to 3.5k tps.

Regarding Tfb. I didnt use an attack adrenal, but a tauntrotation ( if your standing in the opposite direction of the other tentacle your masstaunt shouldnt hit it thus position yourself so you character is always on the side where the water is). As the masstaunt of a pt works in another way ( the aoe radius is not where the char is but where the target is) it might be a little tricky. Communicating with your other tank is vital here so he can taunt back his tentacle.
A thing you could use would be a pyro grenade, it does good dmg and leaves a dot, problem is its aggro doesnt seem to be effected by your tankstance therefore it generates only x1 aggro. Maybe its even an option to use the attack adrenal, but i would prefer a rakkata armour adrenal to prevent dmg and prior my tauntrotation as the use of an attack adrenal might give you maximum 1k extra threat. So if a dps gets aggro hell get it with and without the use of the attack adrenal. But i would rahter take the risk of taunting both tentacles than using an attack adrenal over an rakkata or absorb adrenal

As jugger tank i have for example a 41 ap crystal in my hilt. This rises my mitgation a little mit (sonic wall+sonic barrier) and gives me more tps ( which are not really needed) at the cost of 510 hp ( i am at 41.400 atm). In my eyes ap is more beneficial for juggers, maybe you can think about doing the same.

Ok maybe pts can do 5k opening bursttps. Its still low compared to the other tanks and low compared to the tps the dps do in their opening rotation.
Conquerer of the Dread Fortress Methoxa - Gate Crasher - Black Bantha - Vanjervalis Chain EU

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.25.2014 , 11:58 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Methoxa View Post
All of the tanking classes can reach 1.4k dps ( for juggs its harder than for pts and assas) @ nefra. resulting into a 3k tps.
Not quite. All of the tanks have abilities which have extra threat built into them (though, vanguards have the least). I can reach 1.3k DPS on a dummy without shield/defense procs (i.e. lacking 30% of my force regen). That same parse had almost 3k TPS, due to the extra threat multipliers on Slow Time, Project and Force Breach. Based on calculations on tank dummy-vs-boss parsing that I've done in the past, that puts my boss TPS at nearly 3.9k without taunting, which is enough to keep ahead of any DPS on a boss (since even concealment and pyro aren't parsing 4k+ on any boss without adds).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)