Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How different is shadow/assassin tanking?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
How different is shadow/assassin tanking?

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
02.23.2014 , 02:12 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Prototypemind View Post
Jugg tanking isn't difficult, but I do think a lot of people see the base DR, heavy armor, etc, and ignore the mechanics. They don't bother using their AoE taunt to shield the whole group, don't use Retaliation and Force Scream to shield themselves, intercede to help others drop threat or to get around when shifting is tight. A lot of the utility that a Jugg offers is ignored.
the biggest issue is difficulty is subjective at best. The current consensus is that sin tanks are in fact the hardest to play and master. Vaid could be correct that juggs are in fact harder if his expertise is to be trusted, but there hasn't been anyone to back up his claim and it's going directly against the current agreed upon consensus of the hive mind. I also can't tell if this is true for everyone or maybe he's an outlier and the fact he finds sin to be easier is only considering his preferences.
Poopvectus

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
02.23.2014 , 04:37 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
I'd say I've mastered sin tanking, sorc healing and sniper dps [Still can't break that 3.8k mark], but because I don't play my sorc healer anymore competitively, I don't feel like I deserve the same respect on the matter of healing. I agree with you that sin tanks are not as hard as people make them out to be. I've had pre and post 2.0 to master and perfect how to play it. Obviously I still get new information on what our cooldowns can and cannot be useful for and how we can maximize our survivability through new tricks , but the base mechanics I've known for a very long time.

I can't comment on the difficulty of sins versus juggys, but the problem is I don't really know how much I trust you on this comparison. I can't tell if you're bias because you main a juggy or if you are being truly genuine and find juggernauts to be harder to play than sins. I also have to question if that is the case for everyone, or just for you. In the last thread where this was argued I don't believe anyone sided with you on the subject, but I think this has more to do with people never really getting truly good at both and able to give an answer that can confirm or deny you, and that basically means that your statement is just as true as it is false.

In the end, while you might be right. I can't really trust your judgement. There simply isn't enough people who can compare the two and say that it is a definite fact or just an opinion of one man.
I don't think I'm biased, but of course most people don't so that doesn't mean much. Part of the issue is with people judging alts they play is that most people confuse everything they learned on how to play the game with how to play a particular character. Thus, someone's first character is generally harder for them to learn as they must also get used to the game's mechanics, learning boss fights, and so on that aren't tied specifically to that character. I'm taking into account only Jugg-specific knowledge and play compared to Assassin-specific ones. The basics of Assassin tanking are harder to be competent with than Jugg tanking, but once you get past that point, Juggs have a crazy amount of depth that just surpasses the intricacies of Assassin tanking.

Juggs are harder to master since they use a lot more skills in their opener + rotation/priority system (which involves far more decision-making) and have more thoughtful defensive cooldowns (especially Enraged Defense until Bioware turns it into a boring skill in 2.7). They do this while having the same amount/depth of utility as Assassins and having to deal with resource management that Assassins can almost completely ignore. The only area where Assassins are harder is active mitigation and this does not make up for the rest.

Regardless, it's true you can't take my word for it. If you have a Jugg/Guardian you want to master, I wrote a guide and posted it in the appropriate forums (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=724545). Much of it also has explanations for tanking in general, but the Jugg-specific information is still massive for the Advanced and Master sections.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
02.23.2014 , 06:36 AM | #13
I know that the whole 'Shadow tanks are hard' gets throw around a lot, but honestly that is only kind of in comparison to the other classes. All classes have 'rotations' which increases their mitigation and they all have procs. Majority of the procs manifest themselves in the respective abilities becoming available so you don't even have to watch your buff bar all that much. Shadow may have the harder difficulty of having to check your Ward stacks when the ability comes off cd and then making a decision whether to press it immediately or wait for 3 GCDs and making sure that you have your Harnessed stacks up, which is a 12s buff on a 9s refresh timer at most.

You should be able to pick up the basics from looking at the skill tree and leveling alone.

Neither class is truly difficult.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.23.2014 , 01:21 PM | #14
Vaidinah: Judging by the advice you generally give regarding sin tanking, I really doubt that you have mastered it. You have demonstrated a consistent lack of awareness of how important some of the class mechanics are, relative to other ones. However, a simple combat log would prove me wrong. Nightmare Dread Guard is a really good boss for judging tank performance, but if you haven't done that one on your sin, I would accept a Dread Palace run.

The very fact that you believe that sin tanking is the simplest class in the game belies your claimed mastery. I play most of the classes in the game to a highly competitive level relative to gear, and I find very few of them have a depth which equals my shadow.

In any case, arguing about the respective difficulties of each class is a fools errand. Everyone has their opinion. What I think we can all agree on is that there is a lot of depth in each of the classes that isn't readily observed from the outside.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
02.23.2014 , 04:11 PM | #15
Well instead of harking at each other with biases or whatnot let's look at it objectively. I am going to use a mixture of Pub/Imp terminology here, sorry cba looking up mirror names. Asterisk means most difficult.

Abilities/buffs to manage and procs to react to;

Vanguard: 4, actively managing the CD on Energy Blast for best mitigation, Procs of Stockstrike, Pulse Canon (it's cd as well if one pt in Tactical Tools) and uptime of DR.
Juggernaut: 4, Smash, Scream, Crushing Blow+Retaliate, separate Retaliate
*Assassin: 5, Ward/Bulwark, Harnessed Shadows, Maul, uptime of acc debuff, Shock

Defensive Cooldowns (regardless of their respective power) requiring consideration of attack/damage type;

Vanguard: 1/4
*Juggernaut: 2/4 (2/5 if Enraged Defence used)
Assassin: 2/3

Rotational issues (ST);

*Vanguard: has to pick between highest threat and highest mitigation rotations
Juggernaut: high threat = high mitigation rotations
Assassin: high threat = high mitigation rotations

Rotational Issues (AoE);

Vanguard: 360 spam, cone variable cd 18s max, and the spread on HiB 15s cd
*Juggernaut: cone spam, Smash 12s cd, spread on Crushing 12s cd
Assassins: 360 spam, Wither 9s cd, Discharge 6s cd

Energy Management (provided MT);

Vanguard: can easily keep good Energy by spamming base = high mitigation
*Juggernaut: Has to know exactly how much Energy is available (through proc as well) to execute mitigation moves
Assassin: Has to have enough energy for TKT every 12s, beyond that it is almost never a problem to use base.
(Somewhat subjective)

Susceptible to interrupts/knocbacks/stuns;

Vanguard: almost zero, only hurts threat, unless knocked beyond 10m when Energy Blast needs refresh
Juggernaut: problematic if prevented from using Retaliate when available and Scream on CD, rest has longer timers than cds
*Assassin: heavy loses if prevented from controlling Ward/Bulwark and keeping Harnessed Shadows

Managing Group utilities;

Vanguard: virtually none, unless lending Riot Gas
Juggernaut: AoE taunt and Intercede (limited usage when MT)
*Assassin: Placement of Phase Walk, especially in movement heavy fights

Feel free to add other categories and correct mistakes but so far
Vanguard 1
Juggernaut 3
Assassin 3
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

mastirkal's Avatar


mastirkal
02.23.2014 , 04:22 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
*snipe*
You're simplifying a very complicated matter into something easy to understand, but it's isn't that simple of a concept to grasp. Every bit of it is subjective. As we can see with vaid, he swears by his juggy, Tam swears by his sin and claims the same experience as Vaid. Who's right? The only explanation is a fight to the death. Loser is right, winner lives and has to live with being wrong, everyone gets what they want. Sounds fair to me.
Poopvectus

Vaidinah's Avatar


Vaidinah
02.23.2014 , 08:41 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Vaidinah: Judging by the advice you generally give regarding sin tanking, I really doubt that you have mastered it. You have demonstrated a consistent lack of awareness of how important some of the class mechanics are, relative to other ones. However, a simple combat log would prove me wrong. Nightmare Dread Guard is a really good boss for judging tank performance, but if you haven't done that one on your sin, I would accept a Dread Palace run.

The very fact that you believe that sin tanking is the simplest class in the game belies your claimed mastery. I play most of the classes in the game to a highly competitive level relative to gear, and I find very few of them have a depth which equals my shadow.

In any case, arguing about the respective difficulties of each class is a fools errand. Everyone has their opinion. What I think we can all agree on is that there is a lot of depth in each of the classes that isn't readily observed from the outside.
If you have problems with any advice I have given regarding sin tanking, state it. Every piece of advice I've given about them has been correct. When I give advice, I am generally good about stating where it is meant for newer players or experienced ones. For example, the effective rotation of Sins I have mentioned several times in other posts is perfect for the large majority of players.

Also, I stopped playing my Assassin for the most part after the most recent changes to them that brought Dark Protection like I stated here (http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...90#post6816590). I have the 2nd post on that page and since then, I've played my Assassin maybe 3 times total on that character to back-fill for a team. Spikiness was supposed to be one of the disadvantages of Assassin tanking and they basically took it away because a bunch of people complained on the forums. So no, I'm not going to drag my team through NiM Dread Guards on that character for your sake when all the information I provide is as accurate as possible.

Next, I never stated sins were the simplest class to master. I said sin tanking is the simplest spec to master of all the ones I have; I don't even play Assassin DPS so I don't know their difficulty much at all. Pre-2.0, that was hybrid Jugg tank, Sin tank (full Darkness), Vengeance Jugg, and Concealment Operative. After 2.0, it would be full Immortal Jugg tank, Sin tank (full Darkness), and Saboteur + Sharpshooter Gunslinger. I have not mastered every spec in the game nor has anyone else. I have played various other specs on almost every class in the game (I don't have a 55 Merc/Commando, though), but I do so at a competent or better level and not a master one. Even then, all of this only applies to PvE.

Like I stated before, I don't talk about anything with any kind of authority that I don't know very, very well and I know my limits. I don't ignorantly compare different specs that I am not extremely experienced with, yet somehow many other people have no issues doing so. I will agree that most specs in general have a lot of subtle factors that affect how they play that most people will not understand until they have a ton of experience.
The Harbinger
Intrepid

Guardian/Juggernaut Tank Guide: From Beginner to Master

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.23.2014 , 08:52 PM | #18
Assassins have 4 cooldowns with Cloak and the resulting repeated medpack, which I think is important to count (as is Enraged Defense). Additionally, Assassin's only general-purpose cooldown has an attached heal, and thus cannot be used at full health (which does have an impact in a number of fights). Saber Reflect is tricky (though less frequently used than Shroud), and I think despite the fact that Cloak negates healing and bugs several fight mechanics (e.g. Raptus and Dash'roode), I think Enraged Defense is still more difficult to use properly due to the resource cost.

Juggernauts have some additional rotational concerns not reflected in the list. For example, Juggs are the only tank which needs to choose between high threat and high damage. Assassins do momentarily, where they need to choose snap threat over expected deferred threat (basically, whether or not to use Discharge, and whether to delay Force Lightning), but Juggs almost always have that decision to make.

The perfect Jugg mitigation rotation (Scream exactly every 12 seconds) is harder than it seems, as evidenced by the remarkably small number who actually execute it. This rotation is also the highest damage rotation, but still. It's really not as easy as it seems to get Scream exactly on cooldown.

Assassin energy is the easiest of the three, but also the most punishing when mismanaged. Not in terms of damage or threat, but in terms of survivability. On many fights, it is entirely possible to screw yourself out of force such that you cannot preserve your active mitigation. This requires a bit of forward thinking in a lot of cases. Jugg and PT active mitigation is more forgiving in terms of timing (except for Scream, which is less impactful than Dark Protection). However, PTs and especially Juggs are severely punished in terms of damage and threat when their energy is mismanaged, and due to the interaction of various procs, Juggs have the most energy cases to consider, and thus it seems clear that they are the hardest in this area.

-------

I think it's important to underscore that I am in no way claiming that my Jugg expertise is as significant as Vaid's. Not only is he the only Jugg I've ever seen who uses Scream within a tight margin of the mathematical ideal, but I've also seen him do several very non-standard things with his rotation which result in DPS gains. When he says that Juggs are hard to master, he isn't being facetious. My only contention is that his utter dismissal of the depth associated with Assassin tanking is reflective of ignorance, rather than any deep truth about the class.

I think a fight to the death is probably the only solution. :-)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
02.24.2014 , 06:03 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by mastirkal View Post
You're simplifying a very complicated matter into something easy to understand, but it's isn't that simple of a concept to grasp. Every bit of it is subjective. As we can see with vaid, he swears by his juggy, Tam swears by his sin and claims the same experience as Vaid. Who's right? The only explanation is a fight to the death. Loser is right, winner lives and has to live with being wrong, everyone gets what they want. Sounds fair to me.
That's why it is impossible to say which is harder, it is not however, impossible to simply list the the factual differences between classes and their gameplay. And yes simplification was kind of the point.

I do like the duel idea though.
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

Chazcon's Avatar


Chazcon
02.24.2014 , 02:00 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaidinah View Post
I have mastered sin tanking and it was the easiest spec I ever learned. This was especially true pre-2.0 when Assassin tanks were ridiculously easy compared to the hybrid Jugg tank, Vengeance Jugg, and Concealment Operative that I mastered back then. When people were complaining all over the place about Assassin tanks being too spikey after 2.0, I had to explain to several Assassin tanks who thought they were amazing at the game how to play their class correctly, especially with regard to using defensive cooldowns and utiilty.

Unlike a lot of people, I don't talk about topics with any kind of authority unless I actually know what I'm talking about. Many people are compelled to make incorrect statements on classes/specs they aren't even good at because they heard someone else say it.

Arguments are fine if there is actually something to discuss, but only when both sides have a strong understanding of the topics. Since that's not the case, nothing is going to happen.
This post made me laugh. Thanks for the entertainment.
FOR THE VITAE!
Thod says, "they really don't know what they're doing"