Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

How to be a theorycrafter question

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
How to be a theorycrafter question

bdatt's Avatar


bdatt
02.18.2014 , 03:56 PM | #1
I have a fundamental "How to be a theorycrafter" question. I've been following this stuff since spring 2013, so it may be in the archive but I don't recall. Question: where do you get the formulas that translate stat budgets (not just tank mitigation stats, but things like surge/critical rating too) to percentages? I'm interested in seeing the data on "diminishing returns" that I always just trust when others make reference.

Options:
1) Datamined
2) Bioware posted them somewhere
3) Empirically determined

If I were to attempt #3, I would take my character, add a piece of gear one at a time, and plot the stat increase (e.g. defense rating) vs. the % increase. If I had done this when 2.0 dropped, and the relationship were linear, this would be fine for later tiers of gear that did not exist in the game at the time. A linear function however would not fit my definition of having diminishing returns (until you hard cap), therefore I assume the function is logarithmic (or more complicated) in which case having only a few datapoints at the low end of stat budgets may not be sufficient to accurately determine the function and return at later stat budgets.

I could be wrong on the last point, i.e. the data points when 2.0 dropped were sufficient to determine the formulas extending out, if that is the approach you took.

Also, can anyone point me to these equations or graphs showing the returns on stats, diminishing or otherwise? The critical chance vs. critical rating one posted in Dulfy's recent theorycrafting guide kinda sparked my desire for more knowledge.

oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
02.18.2014 , 04:18 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by bdatt View Post
I have a fundamental "How to be a theorycrafter" question. I've been following this stuff since spring 2013, so it may be in the archive but I don't recall. Question: where do you get the formulas that translate stat budgets (not just tank mitigation stats, but things like surge/critical rating too) to percentages? I'm interested in seeing the data on "diminishing returns" that I always just trust when others make reference.

Options:
1) Datamined
2) Bioware posted them somewhere
3) Empirically determined

If I were to attempt #3, I would take my character, add a piece of gear one at a time, and plot the stat increase (e.g. defense rating) vs. the % increase. If I had done this when 2.0 dropped, and the relationship were linear, this would be fine for later tiers of gear that did not exist in the game at the time. A linear function however would not fit my definition of having diminishing returns (until you hard cap), therefore I assume the function is logarithmic (or more complicated) in which case having only a few datapoints at the low end of stat budgets may not be sufficient to accurately determine the function and return at later stat budgets.

I could be wrong on the last point, i.e. the data points when 2.0 dropped were sufficient to determine the formulas extending out, if that is the approach you took.

Also, can anyone point me to these equations or graphs showing the returns on stats, diminishing or otherwise? The critical chance vs. critical rating one posted in Dulfy's recent theorycrafting guide kinda sparked my desire for more knowledge.
Hi Bdatt,

I wrote the guide on Dulfy's site, and I am just finishing my next article now. Anyway, I used to administer the forums for a site called MMO Mechanics, which is now dead. I am trying to recreate some of the great content from that site such as the articles I am writing for Dulfy.

To answer your last question, here are the current formulas since 2.0. This is a pretty crude presentation of them, and there isn't much explanation right now.

Going back to your first question regarding methods for finding out these formulas, to my knowledge BioWare has never publicly disclosed these formulas. Still, some of the things are easy enough to derive. I believe KeyboardNinja successfully derived even the more complex formulas for the most part as well. I honestly don't know where the info first published on MMO Mechanics came from. Still, it was accurate and complete information that discussed the game mechanics beyond the base formulas.

I'd be happy to answer any specific questions you may have; feel free to PM me.

Cheers,
oofalong
Oofalong | Oofawrong | Incendiari | Uriyah | Litlah & More
Repoofalong | Tuamara | Liolami & More
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.18.2014 , 06:04 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by oofalong View Post
Going back to your first question regarding methods for finding out these formulas, to my knowledge BioWare has never publicly disclosed these formulas. Still, some of the things are easy enough to derive. I believe KeyboardNinja successfully derived even the more complex formulas for the most part as well. I honestly don't know where the info first published on MMO Mechanics came from. Still, it was accurate and complete information that discussed the game mechanics beyond the base formulas.
I derived the first set of scalars in 2.0 (the numbers for level 55). And to answer the OP, I did it essentially by trial and error (I took off all my gear and put it on piece-by-piece across several characters). However, I already had some really strong structural work to build on when I did it. LagunaD and Freehugs (both of which have left the game) did the majority of the heavy lifting back in the open beta periods when people were working excitedly to figure out how things work. Specifically, LagunaD derived the following form:

(cap * 100) * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / cap ) )^( ( rating / level ) / (k / 10) ) )

This form is the real foundation to essentially all of what we know about diminishing returns in SWTOR. In this formula, "cap" is the percentage (between 0 and 1) hard asymptote, "rating" is the amount of a particular stat which you have, "level" is your character's level, and "k" is the amount of this particular stat which is required to gain 1% starting from 0 rating at your current level.

This formula hasn't changed since the game launched, and so when bioware tweaks things (like they did with Surge early on, or the full stat overhaul in 2.0), it's generally pretty easy to just work out new values for "cap" and "k".

The 2.0 Expertise formulae (for PvP damage increase, damage reduction and healing increase) were worked out by GalenMourne and Wainamoinen based on some preliminary very rough work that I did.

To the best of my knowledge, the "standard health" and "standard healing" magic coefficients, along with all of the ability coefficients aside from certain magically bugged abilities (like Zealous Strike) were obtained by data mining.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

bdatt's Avatar


bdatt
02.19.2014 , 09:24 AM | #4
Many, many thanks, this actually explains it pretty well. E.g. the low "k" value for surge with a 30% asymptote cap explains comments on the hard diminishing returns at higher levels of surge rating.

I'd be interested in armor rating > k/e damage reduction cap and k values too. Obviously for your guide oofalong there's no tradeoff to consider like there is with defense vs. absorb and one would never not take a higher armoring (set bonus consideration aside).

Makes me wish I had been into this sort of thing at the game's beginning. Better late than never I guess.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.19.2014 , 10:57 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by bdatt View Post
I'd be interested in armor rating > k/e damage reduction cap and k values too. Obviously for your guide oofalong there's no tradeoff to consider like there is with defense vs. absorb and one would never not take a higher armoring (set bonus consideration aside).
Armor is the only stat in the game which has a hard (artificially programmed) cap. Specifically, that cap is 75%. I don't actually know how that cap was determined, but it has been cited essentially since beta by some fairly reputable sources, so I'm inclined to believe it.

The cap is irrelevant anyway, since you can't get even remotely close to 75% DR solely from armor rating in the current game, nor are we likely to get there in the future.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

cxten's Avatar


cxten
02.20.2014 , 11:27 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Armor is the only stat in the game which has a hard (artificially programmed) cap. Specifically, that cap is 75%. I don't actually know how that cap was determined, but it has been cited essentially since beta by some fairly reputable sources, so I'm inclined to believe it.

The cap is irrelevant anyway, since you can't get even remotely close to 75% DR solely from armor rating in the current game, nor are we likely to get there in the future.
I recently joined a warzone in tank spec on a level 16 juggernaut. I opened my character sheet and was floored to find my (bolstered) damage reduction at 76.xx%. I'm sure this includes some bonuses, so is not truly breaking the 75% limit you mention here, but can you explain what was going on? Isn't this number like mid-50's at max level in full (pve) 78 gear (or so, just off the top of my head).

[Sorry to be slightly off-topic.]

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
02.20.2014 , 11:30 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by cxten View Post
I recently joined a warzone in tank spec on a level 16 juggernaut. I opened my character sheet and was floored to find my (bolstered) damage reduction at 76.xx%. I'm sure this includes some bonuses, so is not truly breaking the 75% limit you mention here, but can you explain what was going on? Isn't this number like mid-50's at max level in full (pve) 78 gear (or so, just off the top of my head).

[Sorry to be slightly off-topic.]
That…wow.

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

December 13, 2011 to January 30, 2017

cxten's Avatar


cxten
02.20.2014 , 11:43 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
That…wow.

So the 75% limit only applies to DR from armor rating, so even if you only have a small set of additional bonuses, you would theoretically be able to exceed that. However, >76% sounds absolutely insane for bolster. The only time I've seen DR even close to that is when I'm on my shadow will full Shadow Protection stacks and Battle Readiness up (which puts me at just shy of 70% DR). A vanguard with Reactive Shield would be just shy of 80% DR.
This was without popping anything (though all I have at that point is saber ward), just waiting for it to start. I have 6% flat DR from soresu form, and the various +armor talents (from soresu, plus the 15% more in the tree) but I have no idea why it was bolstered so high. I'll see if it's still true (the juggernaut is level 18 now I think) and try to grab numbers when I get a chance.

It's possible some healer had an armor buff on me as well just randomly, but I don't think so.

For what I was wearing: Heavy armor in each slot, with level 10 or 16 blue armorings in most (and blue boots and green bracers at some random rating I think). Two of the armor pieces had no enhancement slotted in I think, if that matters for bolster somehow.

Darth_Dreselus's Avatar


Darth_Dreselus
02.20.2014 , 11:44 AM | #9
MRW when I found out that Oofalong is trying to resurrect MMOmechanics on Dulfy.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...95k2o1_400.gif
No One Important Died Tavernus - Sorc / Taverna - Mara / Pintus - Op / Gintonica - PT
The Red Eclipse. Sweet Dreams to all my Harbinger children.

oofalong's Avatar


oofalong
02.20.2014 , 12:06 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Dreselus View Post
MRW when I found out that Oofalong is trying to resurrect MMOmechanics on Dulfy.
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx...95k2o1_400.gif
LOL, it is slow going and I am already behind what I had hoped to do...stupid RL stuff like work...

Still, I hope to get the important stuff available soon.
Oofalong | Oofawrong | Incendiari | Uriyah | Litlah & More
Repoofalong | Tuamara | Liolami & More
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
You are correct Oofalong.